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N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#81

Post by wil421 »

oscargrouch wrote: post #73
wil421 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the slides I want to see the evidence myself. All I am seeing now is the words of various reporters. I am trying to grasp at something that would justify it. Its beyond belief that they are actually doing this. Who's the good guys in this world or are the "people" the only good guys left?

"The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see" In all the snowden leaks, there are documents to prove what they are saying; go to the guardian, or try to see if theres any attachment somewhere.. It would be very difficult to find something "in the cloud"; cause it would probably be under takedown (people could get into prison or even killed without notice just by porting some of those pen-drives or sd cards.. s…

About the slides, on some of the other reports they provided pictures of the slides. On the petrobas article no slides were provided.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#82

Post by coldtea »

fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

>Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise through espionage is not.

Exactly. And this is something that has been going on for ages,

To be clear, it's not like they feel they promote "select private enterprises" by doing so. That is, it's not "let's help our pals at company X" -- it's more like "let's give the US corporations a leverage against Mexico / Brasil / France etc".

It already is an unfair (and illegal in most cases) leverage because it's based on huge spying machinery. But when it's also combined with the kind of huge diplomatic, political and military pressure the US has, then it becomes a way to crush competition, in other words post-colonialism at its best.

And no, not "all countries do the same" (a common counter-argument). A lot, maybe all countries do have spying agencies, but most of them are concerned with internal affairs (dissidents and such) and dangerous neighborhoud countries (feuds). And of course, their scale and scope is orders of magnitude smaller.

Only someone watching too much 24 and Homeland would believe that countries such as, say, Chile, Argentina, Luxemburg, Czech republic, Albania, Greece, Portugal, Denmark, Colombia and such have the same kind of spying infrastructure and reach as the US has (and much much less the diplomatic might to take advantage of it, even if they had). It's not called a "superpower" for nothing.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#83

Post by [deleted] »

flexie wrote: post #28
fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

[deleted]

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#84

Post by coldtea »

4354325425 wrote: post #36
flexie wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

What did all of that have to do with the NSA? How would US espionage force the EU from prosecuting or legislating against these companies?

>How would US espionage force the EU from prosecuting or legislating against these companies?

Well, how about evesdropping on EU meetings where such actions is discussed, and taking the appropriate actions / applying pressure to favor european officials that are against them or remove from office officials that are in favor?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#85

Post by adamki »

flexie wrote: post #28
fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities. Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft... Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But no…

I’m not sure why you would choose tech companies to illustrate your point, financial institutions and energy companies might fit your narrative better.

One could argue that the regulatory environment in Europe has prevented local success, you don't get to baselessly blame these companies (none of which have gained their position undeservedly) and spue accusations without proof.

Also you don't get to blame the US for Europe's lack or enterprise, I suggest you ask an economist for a better excuse.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#86

Post by yk »

bananacurve wrote: post #16
sentenza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current government are dominated by that party. From the beginning of the crisis, these people loudly blamed the victim, accusing NSA-critics of anti-americanism and telling us that "the NSA discussion is over". Then, with time, the industrial espionage stories started t…

> German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors Do you have a source for that? As far as I can tell Germany wants tighter intelligence integration with the US and howls at the slightest mention of even reducing the size of US military bases on German soil.

2001 EU Parliament Report: Echelon Global Private and Commercial Communications Interception System [0]

    10.5.1. Strategic industrial espionage by the intelligence services

    After the end of the Cold War, intelligence service capacity
    was released and it can now be used in other areas. The United 
    States readily admits that some of its intelligence service's 
    activities also concern industry. This includes, for example,, 
    monitoring of the observance of economic sanctions, compliance 
    with rules on the supply of weapons and dual-use goods, 
    developments on commodities markets and events on the international
    financial markets. The rapporteur's findings are that the US
    services are not alone in their involvement in these spheres,
    nor is there any serious criticism of this.
Before our enternal Innenminister accuses me of naive anti-americanism, let me also point out section 2.5 and 3.3.3.

[0] http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep.htm#2

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#87

Post by coldtea »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #27
fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible, while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise through espionage is not. I am genuinely curious why the former would be defensible while the latter not. The former in this case would trend toward causing (at some point) some level of death an destructi…

>I am genuinely curious why the former would be defensible while the latter not.

Because the one is (supposedly) defensive tactic, the other is offensive.

>Why would a country not have a program to enhance it's own industry through espionage?

Because the country being a superpower gives all other countries an unfair advantage. Even if you don't believe in morality and ethics, so you don't care about that, this can still get to bite its ass at some point.

Second, because it's also hypocritical with said country paying lip service to "free markets".

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#88

Post by dreamfactory »

mhurron wrote: post #18
adventured wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that industrial spying by national agencies is rather common across the globe. The only difference here is the perception and magnifying glass / media spotlight.

> media spotlight And as soon as that passes no one will care again.

How about you?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#89

Post by leoc »

lio32 wrote: post #19

Gentle reminder: Google willingly co-operated with the NSA and provided direct access to their systems: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-... We can affect change by boycotting the services of Google and other tech giants. We all know that the Senate only listens to rich Corporate lobbyists rather than citizens.

They didn't provide direct access.
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