The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks • Hacker News Board

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#81

Post by paulgb » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:12 PM UTC

0xdefec8 wrote: post #77

paulgb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, what percent of Windows users could actually install the OS if they needed to?

Not sure I understand the question, you mean could they install Windows on the same machine? It was running XPsp2 prior to Ubuntu 9.04.

I mean how many users could take a PC with no OS and get Windows running on it.

Installation is an obstacle for linux adoption, but it's not (entirely) because the installation process is broken. It's because Linux doesn't have the OEM distribution model that Microsoft does.

I don't think this refutes anything you've said, I'm just pointing out that it is more than a software issue.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#82

Post by Elepsis » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:27 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #51

0xdefec8 wrote: post #33

As a dude who just tried Ubuntu for the first time in 5 years to see how far they've come, but couldn't because the fucking liveCD didn't have a driver for my cdrom, this rings true. But for what it's worth, after a few grueling days getting the p.o.s. up and running, I was shocked to have all the UI fluff my macbook has, plus the infinite list of other great stuff that's inherent to Linux. The moral? Just shrinkwrap…

To be fair, what percent of Windows users could actually install the OS if they needed to?

If you buy Windows and have trouble installing it (which, by the way, is far less likely in my experience than with most Linux installs -- although things are getting better on that front, too), there's a phone number I/my grandma can call for help. You'd be surprised by how big a difference that makes.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#83

Post by ori_b » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:31 PM UTC

cschwarm wrote: post #80

psadauskas wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's foundation? I'm a web developer, so to me, I want the latest ruby, apache, etc... However, a server admin might want the more "stable" versions of the same. I know that Gentoo, at least, has the facility to accomplish this. They have package masking, so you can specify exactly the packages you want to be kept on the bleeding edge. Taken a step further, you can set up your own "profile", and list exactly what ve…

Of course, it is easy. When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically? For an end-user, there's no difference to APT. Also, you seem to misunderstand the point. To have a third kind of distribution -- "stable foundation and recent apps" -- doesn't affect your choice of distri…

> When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically?

So where can I get this program you speak of? Why doesn't it exist? (edit: and if it doesn't exist because you don't even have RSS feeds, isn't it even harder than watching those and manually installing?)

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#84

Post by paulgb » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:36 PM UTC

Elepsis wrote: post #82

paulgb wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, what percent of Windows users could actually install the OS if they needed to?

If you buy Windows and have trouble installing it (which, by the way, is far less likely in my experience than with most Linux installs -- although things are getting better on that front, too), there's a phone number I/my grandma can call for help. You'd be surprised by how big a difference that makes.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that the Linux installation process is as friendly as Windows (though, as you said, things are getting better). But how many Windows users even know what an operating system is? How many of them realize that Windows isn't built-in to the computer? I think there's a mental obstacle here that would make installing Windows difficult for many (but not all) Windows users.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#85

Post by fatdog789 » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:52 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #24

There's nothing in this blog post that's blatantly wrong. There's also nothing in it that's news. It's not written better than other sources that have made the same point, which sources include several famous blog posts from usability and UI experts. The author isn't a usability or UI expert. In fact, I'm not sure who he is.

At the very least, he's notable for taking all the competing arguments and putting them together into a single post that people have noticed, thereby becoming a potential reference point for future people who will make the exact same arguments.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#86

Post by fatdog789 » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 9:56 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #74

teilo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss the point. The Gimp and Inkscape, as for as they go, are great tools - if you care about nothing but the Web. They are in no way, shape, or form, ready for the print production environment. Not even close.

How many photoshop users really need to do print production work? Compared to people who just need to whip up some graphics, perhaps for the web? It's not necessarily about being "the best", it's about being "good enough". The Gimp is probably there for what a lot of people need.

The vast majority of them. Photoshop was designed from the beginning to work with print media -- it's called Photoshop for a reason.

Conversely, the people who just need to whip up some graphics don't need Photoshop; they have cheap alternatives like PaintShopPro, Paint.NET, or competing lesser-known commercial software.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#87

Post by fatdog789 » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 10:05 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #41

0xdefec8 wrote: post #33

As a dude who just tried Ubuntu for the first time in 5 years to see how far they've come, but couldn't because the fucking liveCD didn't have a driver for my cdrom, this rings true. But for what it's worth, after a few grueling days getting the p.o.s. up and running, I was shocked to have all the UI fluff my macbook has, plus the infinite list of other great stuff that's inherent to Linux. The moral? Just shrinkwrap…

Wait, you're actually saying that: 1. Someone still makes non-standard cd-roms? 2. Someone else still buys them? After learning you are person #2, why would anyone ever trust any other judgement you make?

1) China. Enough said. 2) The box never says whether the cd-rom uses a "standard driver model."

After reviewing the facts as they exist in this world, why would anyone have trust your reasoning or logical skills ever again? Moreover, given how important logical reasoning is to the computer programming, why would anyone ever trust your computer programming skills ever again? Finally, given how important computer programming skills are to being a computer geek, why would anyone ever trust your geek cred ever again?

See what I did there?

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#88

Post by access_denied » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 10:37 PM UTC

bct wrote: post #56

access_denied wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many lead devels on OSS projects would bend before a pro UID who would contribute to the project?

There are projects for which mainstream UI design is unsuited or unimportant, and there are undoubtedly a few people whose egos would prevent it. Apart from those, I would expect most projects would be happy to accept advice if the UID demonstrated competence.

Than how do we get UIDs to contribute to OSS?

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#89

Post by sophacles » Tue, Jun 30, 2009, 10:39 PM UTC

fatdog789 wrote: post #87

sophacles wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you're actually saying that: 1. Someone still makes non-standard cd-roms? 2. Someone else still buys them? After learning you are person #2, why would anyone ever trust any other judgement you make?

1) China. Enough said. 2) The box never says whether the cd-rom uses a "standard driver model." After reviewing the facts as they exist in this world, why would anyone have trust your reasoning or logical skills ever again? Moreover, given how important logical reasoning is to the computer programming, why would anyone ever trust your computer programming skills ever again? Finally, given how important computer progr…

1)Korea 2) I have yet to meet a cd-rom in this century that didn't just work with linux, no matter what it declared.

After naming an asian company, then stating some vaguely related nonsense about talking inanimate objects, I will now imply there is some sort of link to your sex life: you are impotent.

Despite your pretense of cleverness, I did in fact see what you did there. You pretended that my ad-hominem attack, which trivializes his judgement based on my disbelief of the existence and his subsequent buying of some obscure hardware invalidates his sweeping generalization about an entire industry (an argument silly on its own since driver problems are a universal issue), is somehow the same type of ad-hominem attack as stating random unrelated facts and listing the implications of poor reasoning, reductio-ad-absurdum. Well sir, you are wrong, my blatantly ad-hominem attack (which is pretty absurd in itself) is not the same as your poor attempt at using a witty question to counter it.

Edit: the above run-on sentence is intentionally confusing and absurd.

Re: The One in Which I Say Open Source Software Sucks

#90

Post by stonemetal » Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 12:11 AM UTC

marcusbooster wrote: post #29

stonemetal wrote: post #7

Isn't the main problem for OSS adoption advertising? If you are a graphic artist and don't give a rat's behonkus about computers do you really dig until you find the GIMP(and the continual slog for documentation and understanding) or do you read graphic artist monthly with big color Photo Shop ads, Photo Shop books on B&N's book shelves, and training courses. The choice is just about made for you, in their world Phot…

Maybe it's the average programmer that doesn't give a "rat's behonkus" about the graphic designer? I think most designers I've met know what OSS kinda is and are always looking for tools to improve workflow - they just want tools that work. Last time I checked out Gimp it still didn't support adjustment layers for non-destructible editing, which is pretty much a show-stopper. Packages get used when they lead the way…

>> Gimp it still didn't support adjustment layers for non-destructible editing, which is pretty much a show-stopper. Packages get used when they lead the way in a given field, most of the OSS design apps I've seen are just playing catch-up.

So which is it? Gimp isn't good enough because it doesn't provide feature for feature compatibility with PS or because it doesn't do something different? You just claimed both. It has a different workflow than PS so yeah as long as you try to keep using it like ps it is going to compare poorly.