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Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

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Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I commented above that I am in disagreement the way MSFT arranged this. However, to be fair to the one posing the question, the actual outcome of clicking through the EULA to install the OS of your choice is probably nothing (well, you won't be getting your money back for that Windows license). EULA or not, nothing will happen. It's "the principal of the thing". In this case, it's a pretty big matter of pri…

It doesn't matter that the outcome is nothing. What matters is that you agreed to give up your rights. It's an opening for them if they should choose to pursue action against you.

As DannyBee said, I doubt a court would hold you to those terms.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#82
post #39
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means you can have a crazy BIOS screen heavy with customised images that looks all 3li7e and stuff for the gamer crowd. My PC has one such thing, and it's garbage. I managed to find out how to put it into some sort of 'information' mode with less graphics and more info... but isn't a BIOS screen supposed to be a wholly info thing anyway?

That has absolutely nothing to do with Secure Boot. If anything, what you're talking about has more to do with EFI

Yeah, I got it wrong, that's EFI's fault. Though it should probably be also mentioned that I forgot HN has poor humour detection.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#83

FWIW, As a lawyer, I have a lot of trouble believing that assent to a contract you can't avoid, done specifically for the purpose of removing the contracted software, would ever be held to bind you to the terms and conditions of that contract. In fact, i'd go so far as to say that if Microsoft ever actually tried to enforce, it would run them into serious regulatory trouble. If push came to shove, i'm sure they would…

Thanks for that. That leaves just one legal issue that really needs to be raised:

How is it legal to _deny_ me full access (defined by the removal of all Microsoft software, something the European Commission has repeatedly upheld) until I have completed some Microsoft-controlled procedure? I don't want Windows on the machine.

Assuming I buy from the 3 largest vendors, excluding Apple, is it not anti-competitive to _lock_ me into it since no other option is offered?

Note: I realize that it may seem redundant to beat this dead horse again, but there's a really good reason so many are upset about Secure Boot. Of course, Microsoft mandates that Secure Boot can be disabled for Win8 logo compliance, which is neatly avoided in this case.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#84
post #34
post #3

What are the benefits of Secure Boot?

Theoretically, secure boot could help prevent bootkits (e.g. the "evil maid" attack). Although I have no idea whether this works in practice.

It does, if the stars align.

The default setup of these computers (no full-disk encryption, easy to disable secure boot) typically means that it offers no such security. Look at Chromebook for an example of apparently doing it right.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#85
Could the boot failure mechanism be exploited? I presume that Microsoft has a boot failure mechanism; after N failures to boot, firmware should turn off fast-boot. Is the display of the EULA screen considered a boot success? IOW, can you just reset the machine when you see the EULA screen a few times to get the ability to stop and adjust the firmware?

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#86
post #13

And in practice how many keyboards will this actually apply to?

He's saying that the entire USB system won't be initialized, which means no keyboards that use USB.

So, uh.. what do you do if your system locks up at OS init?

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#87
post #66
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair. This is a legitimate concern. I guess I'm a fairly uninformed consumer, as I've never actually sought a refund for a Windows license (nor known this was a possibility).

With Windows 8 it no longer is.

'PC' ('personal computer') is a general purpose computing device, based on the original IBM architecture. The point is, it was never tied to any particular operating system.

Any attempt to 'tie' the hardware to a proprietary OS can be met with a legal challenge on these grounds. So, regardless of what manufacturers would like customers to think, it is possible to obtain an OS-free computer, even if it entails refusing an EULA and getting a refund for the unused OS.

Many people think this argument applies to Apple, too. But that's a mistake: Apple computers are not marketed as 'PCs'; and their computing system, from hardware to OS, is Apple throughout.

Microsoft works with PC manufacturers to pull off this anti-competitive hoodwink on an ignorant computing public. If it were tested properly in court, the whole corrupt practice would be torn to pieces.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#88
post #77
post #75

There will always be an option to install Linux on x86 somehow. But I found really disturbing growing number of locked ARM systems. Perhaps we could start 'green' campaign; freely installing Linux on such devices expands their moral life-time and causes less emission.

Locked down ARM systems have far longer history than this fairly recent Win8 debacle. One of the most notable examples is TiVo, which led to the phrase "tivoization". I'd argue that the number of "open" ARM devices is what is growing with RasPi and others like it.

The problem is that locked ARM is becoming defacto standard. Soon most main-stream laptops will be ARM based and locked down. Compared to that current issues such as "should I accept EULA?" looks very small.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#89
> In fact, i'd go so far as to say that if Microsoft ever actually tried to enforce, it would run them into serious regulatory trouble.

The main interest of Microsoft is to keep their OEMs in control. Even if it is legal for the end-user to circumvent the protection, the following will probably still hold true:

- Microsoft can still contractually bind their OEMs to implement the protection scheme

- Microsoft can still prevent installations on machines without protection

So, in the best case regulatory action will allow users with hardware implementing the protection scheme to install custom OS (i.e. free them from prosecution when cracking the protection scheme). There is no way of forcing Microsoft to allow installations or usage on devices not implementing the protection scheme or on devices where the protection scheme has been circumvented and this circumvention can be detected by the affected Microsoft OS.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#90
My motherboard is Windows 8 certified and my USB keyboard works perfectly fine during boot. Additionally you can get Windows 8 to give you more boot options if you just keep rebooting while it is trying to start up. Eventually it will give up and attempt to repair your computer before asking what you want to do next.

Has anyone experienced the problems described in the article actually in practice or is the article purely theoretical?

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