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Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

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Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#81

Post by canttestthis »

sudhirj wrote: post #79
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if code jam restricts the sharing of code (come up with your own answers individually, emphasis on your, own, and individually), then three competitors with the same verbatim code is cheating. The test is not designed to cater and IMO should not cater to a particular culture, it is I believe, designed to be a means of identifying individuals of a skillset. Unfortunately the title of this begins with 'Indian' which su…

We'd call this teamwork. It's understood that GCJ will try to find cloned submissions, but for a lot of people telling them not to form teams simply does not compute. It might be three guys sitting beside each other in a dorm room or a lab, or it might be a team on chat. Either everyone knows they all can't win first place, or maybe not any place. That's not the point. If you're in a team, either everyone tries or no…

You make it sound like Indians are mentally incapable of working alone (or perhaps you're exaggerating for effect). Regardless, this is not the case. As an Indian, I know that cheating is more accepted in India, but I've never heard anyone delude themselves into calling it 'teamwork'.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#82

Post by ishansharma »

kamaal wrote: post #77
ishansharma wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 Though someone in the comments is hinting that they are from IIT BHU and confirmed this thing in their college. I won't be surprised at all if IITs have same thing. Whiles many people are there who understand concepts, I don't think all are learning after so much mugging up in entrance exams.

These days IIT's are about two things. First- A good brand to have on your resume. Second- If you don't get a good offer during campus hiring. You basically drop out, give CAT and then apply for an MBA so that you can now get a better offer at the end of your MBA. And so that you can probably go and work at some investment bank in the US. In short, its all about job offers and placements and has very little to do wit…

That's a sad thing. I wonder what effect this will have on India in long term!

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#83

Post by sudhirj »

canttestthis wrote: post #81
sudhirj wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd call this teamwork. It's understood that GCJ will try to find cloned submissions, but for a lot of people telling them not to form teams simply does not compute. It might be three guys sitting beside each other in a dorm room or a lab, or it might be a team on chat. Either everyone knows they all can't win first place, or maybe not any place. That's not the point. If you're in a team, either everyone tries or no…

You make it sound like Indians are mentally incapable of working alone (or perhaps you're exaggerating for effect). Regardless, this is not the case. As an Indian, I know that cheating is more accepted in India, but I've never heard anyone delude themselves into calling it 'teamwork'.

I'm not generalizing - I'm sure there are plenty of Indians in that round who played by the rules, and plenty who tried deliberately to cheat (besides the ones who were actually caught). I'm saying that 'collusion' is thought of differently here in a lot of circles.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#84

Post by bsg75 »

dhimes wrote: post #27
GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

When I was a grad student (in America) a couple of decades ago, I was involved in two seminars/roundtable discussions that stayed with me. One was on sexual harassment- I'll save that for another thread. The other was a cultural awareness 'sharing.' For context, this was around the time of the Anita Hill testimony regarding Clarence Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Hill and the Tianaman Square protest http:/…

There is a difference in collaboration and collusion.

Collaboration is a way to share ideas, and as a group, innovate or improve the way problems are solved and new ideas developed.

Collusion is a way a group completes a task, in education or practice, with the minimum amount of effort and an equivalent level of quality.

An education system (instead of the concept of a culture) does not equate collusion and cheating at some level, it provides neither the students nor their prospective employers a benefit.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#85

Post by crimsonzagar »

ishansharma wrote: post #82
kamaal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days IIT's are about two things. First- A good brand to have on your resume. Second- If you don't get a good offer during campus hiring. You basically drop out, give CAT and then apply for an MBA so that you can now get a better offer at the end of your MBA. And so that you can probably go and work at some investment bank in the US. In short, its all about job offers and placements and has very little to do wit…

That's a sad thing. I wonder what effect this will have on India in long term!

What's interesting is that none of the IITians have spoken on this thread. You guys called it a goat and then wow'ed to say oh man see it is goat. That sounds so much like pure jealousy.

If there is anything that has ever worked in education system of India - it is the IITs. That's one place which certainly has good karma, and I am proud about it. The question - is there cheating in internal exams of IITs?

Check out Harvard in 2012: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Harvard_cheating_scandal

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#86

Post by illuminate »

Sven7 wrote: post #76
paulhauggis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we are going to ban facts now? The problem is that it does seem to be cultural. In every one of my computer science classes, students from India almost always shared answers on the test, copied each others' homework, and felt there was no problem with it.

I always wonder what happens to all these honest Americans once they get into Wall Street. Or these days Silicon Valley where keeping people addicted to social feeds and video streams is making an honest living. Let not even talk about the guys who sold the rest of the world on WMD's.

"I always wonder what happens to all these honest Americans once they get into Wall Street."

The rest probably get filtered out well before reaching that point.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#88

Post by rayiner »

nl wrote: post #59
rayiner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? What do you think is the basis for the pervasive government corruption in asian countries? Do you think it's just a matter of coincidence?

I don't think there is any relationship between the location of a country and corruption. Japan, Hong Kong and especially Singapore are rated as some of the least corrupt countries on earth[1], ahead of both the US and the UK. (South) Korea rates roughly the same as most of Europe, while China & Sri Lanka are roughly the same as Italy (hmm). India & Thailand were rated roughly the same as Greece. There seems to be a…

Italy and Greece: two countries that are on the verge of economic collapse as a result of corruption, tax avoidance, etc.

Japan, Hong Kong, and Korea---three places with very strong U.S. and U.K. influence...

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#89

Post by dhimes »

Simucal wrote: post #48
dhimes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a grad student (in America) a couple of decades ago, I was involved in two seminars/roundtable discussions that stayed with me. One was on sexual harassment- I'll save that for another thread. The other was a cultural awareness 'sharing.' For context, this was around the time of the Anita Hill testimony regarding Clarence Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Hill and the Tianaman Square protest http:/…

I think there needs to be a distinction between collaborating to understand something as a group and directly copying answers verbatim from others. I felt like GuiA was describing the latter and while you are describing the former.

I feel as you do, but it's worth pointing out that if you come from a different frame of reference you may not be observing what you think you are observing. I can't say for sure in this case of course (hence how I ended my post), but he may have seen, say, discussion (in a language he may not be fluent in), showing each other papers, etc., yet may not have been seeing the actual 'cloning' of homework answers. If you walked into a bunch of American students doing this (but couldn't, for whatever reason), it's more natural to assume that there is direct cloning involved.

But different cultures have different norms.

Let's say, for example, that problems 3, 4, and 7 are assigned. Now, problem 7 is a bitch, but shares some of the devilish details, perhaps the 'trick,' with problem 6. Let's also assume that the course requirements are "You must do your own work on homework." As a team, the group worked problem 6 together. But one of the group was still struggling to complete problem 7 for homework. He turns to his friend for help, and the friend replies "remember what we did in problem 6? You do the same thing, but with two instead of one."

Is this cheating?

The direct help "with two " is getting close, but if you are from another culture you may, honestly, think no. Because remember, your whole understanding of education is about getting/doing whatever you need to do in order to solve the problem. So you are going to judge rules differently than someone whose first instinct is "this has to be my work only-- I'll fail all by myself." (I hypothesize that this is part of the problem with international IP laws as well.)

On a personal note, one the other side of the desk I was delighted when students teamed up on homework and did extra. In fact, making solution manuals available and publishing old exams was simply a sneaky way for me to get them to do more work.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#90

Post by btilly »

dhimes wrote: post #27
GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

When I was a grad student (in America) a couple of decades ago, I was involved in two seminars/roundtable discussions that stayed with me. One was on sexual harassment- I'll save that for another thread. The other was a cultural awareness 'sharing.' For context, this was around the time of the Anita Hill testimony regarding Clarence Thomas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Hill and the Tianaman Square protest http:/…

You've just made a story my brother told me click.

He spent years living in Taiwan. He came back to North America for college. He was taking an international law course, and Mandarin (he spoke, but didn't read/write as well as he wanted to) at the same time.

To improve his Mandarin he translated his law notes into Mandarin and distributed them to the Chinese students for feedback. As a result he aced Mandarin, and they all aced the law course.

I always thought that was very nice and clever of him, but until you described that cultural difference I didn't realize how much he was simply continuing to live within cultural norms for the culture he had been in.

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