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Shut Up and Listen

whatever.scalzi.com

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Re: Shut Up and Listen

#81

Post by mistercow »

127 wrote: post #42
mistercow wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just because Scalzi has problems with listening to what people are saying, does not mean that everyone else has. Yes, but I can assure you that when it comes to discussing privilege, well, yes, everyone else does have.

Privilege is a heavily loaded word that is difficult to use in context of contructive discussion. You are by default swallowing the feminist bait and playing by their rules. Making it impossible to gain any ground because of fallacious, circular logic. I'm not denying that privilege exist at all. I'm just saying that how it's understood and used is heavily biased and politicized. It would be much more productive to d…

Oh, I'm sorry, I mistakenly engaged a troll. I'll stop now.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#82

Post by resu_nimda »

scotch_drinker wrote: post #19
cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

Self-flagellation? I went back to make sure I didn't miss anything but it looks like a post about understanding your privilege and how your success relates to it. It's a post about understanding the depth of experience that other people live with, experiences he has not had because of that privilege.

It seems that a trend is developing of labeling earnest introspection as "self-flagellation." See my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5375270 for an identical situation on a different subject. I don't want to make assumptions, but are people really that hostile to the idea of openly questioning oneself?

(I'm speaking specifically of the HN community, obviously the answer for the general public is a resounding "yes")

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#83

Post by GHFigs »

beatpanda wrote: post #56
jiggy2011 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are born with a high IQ and a wealthy background that is more due to luck than any extra effort you have put in. Your ancestors effectively overcame these obstacles on your behalf, so in essence that is a form of privilege; just a different type.

All forms of what is called "privilege" are unearned advantages you get by being, in some way that you didn't choose, part of the dominant group in society. European cultural dominance is also, in a sense, work that was done "on my behalf" by my ancestors, whether I wanted that or not. My point is to say it's multi-dimensional. A black lesbian attempting to get an Ivy League education, even if her parents can essenti…

There are a plethora of white male role models to look to for inspiration in nearly any professional field (even basketball!). Is the same true for black lesbians?

Black lesbians are as free to look up to white male role models as anybody else, just as I'm free to not care about someone's race, gender, or sexuality when I look to them as a role model. (Or religion, ethnicity, etc.)

Lots of people with money and good educational pedigrees have to face the accusation their education was simply purchased by their parents

You wouldn't say that poor people are privileged though, would you? This is where the concept gets shaky, because one person's challenge does not always equate to another person's advantage.

And the point of talking about all this isn't to make you feel bad, or to say that one group is better than another — it's just to create understanding.

You might reconsider what kind of understanding is created when you accuse people of not working as hard or persevering through as much as other people. Nothing is more alienating to hard-working non-bigots (of which there are many among the privileged) than to be accused of secretly being lazy bigots.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#84

Post by sophacles »

btilly wrote: post #68
beatpanda wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the point is, you're just imagining those things, which is what causes you to set up this neat little world where a black lesbian has an Ivy League education just because she's smart, ignoring all of the extra obstacles that would be in her way compared to someone with more social privilege. You're able to do this by comparing different kinds of circumstances — the person born with white and male privilege but li…

When oppressed people reach recognizable pinnacles of success, like an Ivy League education, it's because they worked harder than lots of other people might have had to, despite other advantages they might have had. That would be better than the world we have. Until I moved to the USA and observed the process first hand at an Ivy League school, I would never have credited the claim that there are people whose whole l…

It seems that your frustration is that some people now have a privilege they previously didn't have. This makes sense, but the very first statement you said in light of it suggests that you are turning a blind eye to other privileges. To say that the way things work with some people getting privileges and others not - therefore having to work harder - is ideal, then complaining that some people have to work harder and others not (but in different categories) is somewhat hypocritical.

Basically - your response to a post about how certain unprivileged groups have to work harder is ideal. Then you rand about how different unprivileged groups have to work harder, and how horrible it is.

Whether or not it is your intent, it comes off as defending a status quo based on you not liking the membership conditions (or don't qualify for them) of other privilege.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#85

Post by jack-r-abbit »

I guess I'm the only person that has had the "privilege" of being physically assaulted, several times... in separate states, and harassed and threatened for no other reason than being white. Yay privileged white me! Or maybe the only one that was denied financial aid because my father (not me... my father... single father even) was about $1K over the cut off. Damn him for working that second job and getting a few extra hours of overtime. If only he'd not been such a hard worker, he would have made just a tiny bit less and I could have qualified for assistance. However, this was my dad's money they were counting... not mine. I didn't have money. It would have been nice if my totally (not) rich dad had been able to help me with college. Yay privileged white me! And then there was a whole set of grants I could not even apply for because I was white. Yay privileged white me! And then there is the law about making sure that all groups were proportionally represented in schools and jobs, regardless of qualifications. Yay privileged white me!

Not everyone in this perceived "privileged" class gets dealt aces. Not that it has to be some competition about who has the harder life (sure... you win that prize)... but some of us actually do get the shaft plenty and have to power through it like everyone else. But you can choose to use it as an excuse or you can choose to use it as inspiration. I chose inspiration! I don't complain about it [except in cases like this. ;)] or use it to dismiss the plights of others. I studied and earned an academic scholarship to partially fund my schooling. I worked nights and weekends to pay rent like everyone else. I worked hard to get where I am. And sure, people will just dismiss that and point a link to that "White Male: Lowest Difficulty Level in Life" article. Those people are hypocrites. If your whole argument is "You don't know what it's like" and "Don't judge me until you've walked a mile in my shoes" then you are not allowed to judge me until you've walked in my shoes either. I shut up and listen plenty and mostly what I hear is "Oh poor me and the tough hand I was dealt... I need to tell everyone else to shut up and listen to me because they can't possibly know the hardships I've seen." My "privileged" ass will shut up now. But shutting up and listening is not reserved only for "privileged whites." We'll gladly share that with anyone willing.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#86

Post by sophacles »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #66
Steuard wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others have responded to parts of this already, so I won't repeat their points. But one issue that I haven't seen anyone comment on is that race and sex are very overt traits, while family wealth and IQ are a good bit less obvious at a glance. Being born in a poor family makes life much harder, no question, but (e.g.) if a straight white man from a trailer park does get into a good college then the people around him…

But the straight white guy from the trailer part won't get a good educated because he will be discriminated against for being dumb.

Only if he advertises his "trailer park" background. The point is, he can "pass" for not being from a trailer park with no difficulty (just get setting appropriate clothes and don't say "I'm from a trailer park" all the time).

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#87

Post by prawks »

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #85

I guess I'm the only person that has had the "privilege" of being physically assaulted, several times... in separate states, and harassed and threatened for no other reason than being white. Yay privileged white me! Or maybe the only one that was denied financial aid because my father (not me... my father... single father even) was about $1K over the cut off. Damn him for working that second job and getting a few ext…

I think the OP was discussing more privilege in general, and using the stereotypical straight white male as an example. I agree with you that this is obviously a stereotype, but I don't think the OP used it as anything but just that. Your example speaks volumes about shutting up and listening, both by people of all backgrounds, and to people of all backgrounds.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#88

Post by jiggy2011 »

sophacles wrote: post #86
jiggy2011 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the straight white guy from the trailer part won't get a good educated because he will be discriminated against for being dumb.

Only if he advertises his "trailer park" background. The point is, he can "pass" for not being from a trailer park with no difficulty (just get setting appropriate clothes and don't say "I'm from a trailer park" all the time).

The discrimination will come in the form of standardized examination. If you aren't born with the intellectual ability to pass exams you can't go to harvard.

It's not always easy to pass for upper class when you are not, this is especially true in the UK where you will be judged on your accent.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#89

Post by bromang »

mistercow wrote: post #81
127 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privilege is a heavily loaded word that is difficult to use in context of contructive discussion. You are by default swallowing the feminist bait and playing by their rules. Making it impossible to gain any ground because of fallacious, circular logic. I'm not denying that privilege exist at all. I'm just saying that how it's understood and used is heavily biased and politicized. It would be much more productive to d…

Oh, I'm sorry, I mistakenly engaged a troll. I'll stop now.

welp, an argument you can't win! Time to insult people!

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#90

Post by munificent »

The older I get, the more I realize two very fundamental facts:

People are remarkably different.

Like Clementine in the referenced comment, I'm continually astonished at how different the experience of being someone else is from mine even in an ostensibly identical environment. Just walking in a room can be a remarkably different experience for someone beautiful, ugly, female, disabled, etc.

People are remarkably similar.

I see people do stuff that seems patently dumb are totally counter to how I would do things or how I feel. But as I learn more about the person, I invariably realize what they're doing makes much more sense in context than I originally realized. Much of the difference amounts to differing priorities or background. Much of the core human psychology leading to the behavior is the same.

I'm still trying to figure out how to reconcile these two observations, but the big one for me is to try harder to learn where someone is coming from, what their experiences and background are.

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