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Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

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Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#81
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing wrong with using GMO seeds to increase yield.

It is opinion either way but in my opinion not only isn't it necessary, but it clearly threatens global biodiversity. Proper sustainable farming techniques produce an abundance and a variety of food, so the extra 1% increase on a huge monocropped field isn't even something that makes sense for third world communities. On the biodiversity thing, viewing your website leads me to believe you appreciate nature, so I'm ju…

It's much more than 1%. I haven't down voted you. Liking nature really has nothing to do with anything else.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#82

I can't say whether the findings are correct or not, but I like this: >> The teachers who seemed to be effective were, in fact, able to repeat those successes with different students in different years, the researchers found. Their students not only scored well on standardized exams but also were able to handle more complicated tests of their conceptual math knowledge and reading and writing abilities. To everyone wh…

Then why not use standardized tests for job interviews, or why don't decent universities use them? Standardized tests have serious disadvantages to consider, and aren't normally considered best-by-default. There at least a couple obvious groups qualified to rate educational quality: teachers and students. If they happen to choose a standardized test to evaluate the education, then fine. Otherwise, I don't see standar…

Then why not use standardized tests for job interviews

Because the government said it was illegal. (I'm simplifying, but look up Griggs v Duke.)

However, an employer can look at your college, and your college definitely can use your standardized test scores. So employers do use standardized tests, it just has to pass through a socially accepted filter first.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#83
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

>Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". I don't think this is true. Those who can't afford books can goto the public library and get them.

This was more a correlation than causation (see Freakonomics for a description). Typically, families that can't afford books have other general issues that preclude their children from doing well (for example, they are poor, their parents typically work more than 1 job and can't spend much time with their children, etc).

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#84
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where part of the study showed that with randomized redistributions of students, certain teachers were able reproduce higher test scores -- your countering evidence shows otherwise. Great. Where's your evidence? My own evidence (experience going through school and generalization of how ability works in most professions) tells me that the good teachers in my life helped me to learn the information better and more d…

I just realized that I keep replying to you, crusso (lol). Cheers. I'm more interested in the demographics of the student population than the 'random distribution (1)' of students in that population to different teachers. What I mean by this is that I would expect 'good' teachers to be able to demonstrate their abilities with with relatively homogeneous groupings of students where those students are from relatively d…

Cheers... I'm over-posting to this thread. I feel fairly passionately about education. It's one of those things that I feel is grossly unjust to kids of all socioeconomic and aptitude levels. We spend so much money on education but entrenched interests use their louder megaphones to hold kids hostage.

A study comes out from the Gates Foundation that tries to tackle some of the education problems head on. It produces some statistically interesting results, but here on HN, I keep reading knee-jerk responses about "standardized testing" from people who apparently didn't even read the attached article.

How are we going to solve these problems if no one even bothers to understand our options?

Regarding your point - I agree. Any solution would need to account differences in what you referenced as a "variance in 'quality' of student".

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#85
post #13

There are many important factors which teachers (no matter how good they are) can't control: 1. How wealthy, poor, educated, or uneducated a child's parents are. 2. How many resources the school and teacher are given. 3. Whether a child's parents are abusing them at home. 4. Whether a child is witnessing violence, hopelessness, despair in their neighborhood. 5. The attitude of a child's family and friends towards edu…

Irrelevant. The study uses Value Added Modeling, which accounts for these factors.

Unless the student's parents started abusing them in the year the teacher is being evaluated, it is already accounted for. VAM measures deltas, not absolute levels.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#86

It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already have an acceptable level of education, test scores shouldn't be too important, but it seems like the people criticizing test scores haven't experienced what education is like for the children being "left behind." In middle school, the last three weeks of each…

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…

I didn't read that as saying that testing can predict (outstanding) success. I read it as saying that testing can detect (outstanding) failure.

If a student does at least moderately well on standardized tests, there's a decent chance they'll do at least moderately well later in life.

If most of a teacher's students flunk completely on the standardized tests, the teacher probably isn't doing a very good job.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#87
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how it happens, but I recall having more teachers that I referred to as "Coach" instead of "Mr.", "Ms.", or "Dr." while in middle school and early high school. I'll add to this since I think these types of stories occurs more often than people think. I went to Baker High School in Mobile, Alabama (that might be your first clue). In the 8th grade I took a required course called Earth Science, also of co…

Isn't that illegal? Or has that been turned into a states' rights issue and been made legal by the Alabama legislature?

I've wondered that myself, particularly in regards to the recent evolution vs. "intelligent design" debates in school as of late. I'd be interested to here what other HN readers think.

This is the most dramatic instance I experienced, but in Honors English we spent at least a week on the Bible, but never any other religious texts. Conveniently, at the same time I had read some vampire fiction by Anne Rice and concluded that it's possible that Satan is actually the hero of the Adam & Eve story. It turns out, however, that this is not a good opinion to express when trying to do well in English in a conservative public state school.

As to Earth Science, I was not penalized for my response; had it been, this would have been clearly objectionable. On the other hand, at the time I did feel that it was unfair in that one could give what I considered a cop-out answer for full credit. It may be a theologically true response, but it does not give us any scientific insight and understanding into our Universe.

Given the two examples above, I'm not really sure. It can certainly be uncomfortable for someone who is brought up as an atheist, but I'm not sure it's outright illegal. And this is where the avenue for standardized testing comes in -- it's not necessarily to demonstrate student learning but perhaps rather to better identify egregious issues in school districts.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#88
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not use standardized tests for job interviews, or why don't decent universities use them? Standardized tests have serious disadvantages to consider, and aren't normally considered best-by-default. There at least a couple obvious groups qualified to rate educational quality: teachers and students. If they happen to choose a standardized test to evaluate the education, then fine. Otherwise, I don't see standar…

Don't confuse the government-mandated standardized tests with the SATs. They're not really out there to measure individual students. These tests are to ensure individual schools, districts, and states are giving the proper instruction to their students. They exist to make sure that Springfield High and Franklin High are both teaching the students the required material. Universities do use standardized tests: they use…

Further, many foreign nations (e.g. Japan, I think Singapore) have admission systems comprised entirely of standardized tests. Top 300 scorers get into college #1, 301-600 get into college #2, etc.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#89
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that illegal? Or has that been turned into a states' rights issue and been made legal by the Alabama legislature?

I've wondered that myself, particularly in regards to the recent evolution vs. "intelligent design" debates in school as of late. I'd be interested to here what other HN readers think. This is the most dramatic instance I experienced, but in Honors English we spent at least a week on the Bible, but never any other religious texts. Conveniently, at the same time I had read some vampire fiction by Anne Rice and conclud…

> It can certainly be uncomfortable for someone who is brought up as an atheist, but I'm not sure it's outright illegal.

I'm quite sure it is illegal according to federal law. The question is whether state law trumps this. Because if it does, no doubt Alabama has passed a law making it legal to teach creationism in schools.

Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher

#90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where I have an issue with this discussion. You're throwing up anecdotal data in the face of an actual study. Why is that okay in a community like this that understands the Scientific Method and should have a basic understanding of statistics.

The only point I was trying to make is that test scores do not necessarily define the success of a teacher. I suggest, to be able to apply scientific method and get meaningful results will require far more data than is seemingly being collected.

What data do you feel is needed, but not there?
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