Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can society as a whole ensure that every child gets the best education possible? Step one, define "best education possible". Step two, learn to measure whether or not a child is getting one (or the closest you can come to it). Step three, maximize some aggregate or regionalized version of your measurements through restructuring of school systems, rewards for good schools and teachers, etc. The study in this artic…
It is not even clear if the article gets to step one. Some of the teachers who I feel had the greatest impact on my education taught classes that I did not necessarily score well in. If I am a statistical norm, those teachers would be consider poor teachers according to the metrics, contrary to reality.
Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
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Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not even clear if the article gets to step one. Some of the teachers who I feel had the greatest impact on my education taught classes that I did not necessarily score well in. If I am a statistical norm, those teachers would be consider poor teachers according to the metrics, contrary to reality.
This is where I have an issue with this discussion. You're throwing up anecdotal data in the face of an actual study. Why is that okay in a community like this that understands the Scientific Method and should have a basic understanding of statistics.
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where did you go to school? How does this happen?
I have no idea how it happens, but I recall having more teachers that I referred to as "Coach" instead of "Mr.", "Ms.", or "Dr." while in middle school and early high school. I'll add to this since I think these types of stories occurs more often than people think. I went to Baker High School in Mobile, Alabama (that might be your first clue). In the 8th grade I took a required course called Earth Science, also of co…
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
So the argument is that since everyone sucks at measuring things You read something into my argument that I didn't put there, so I'm going to disregard it as a straw man.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to create a straw man, just trying to tease out a hidden premise, although I suppose I could have been less of a dick about it. I think we can all agree that judging people based on things that they have no control over is not an effective way to evaluate them. This happens in education, as the parent comment outlined. This happens in engineering, as you outlined. It does not follow that teache…
The study attempted to control for things the teacher's couldn't control. They're actually being differentially judged on the parts of education that they can control.
These lines from the article fly in the face of your entire argument: "They also ranked the teachers using a statistical model known as value-added modeling, which calculates how much an educator has helped students learn based on their academic performance over time".
You would need to address them directly in order to mount a credible counter-argument.
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…
From my work teaching I am very skeptical of the notion that it is a family's ability to "afford" books that makes the difference. It is whether the family knows that books are important and chooses to get them and read with their children. While monetary poverty is horrible, it's effect on educational outcome is dwarfed in comparison to cultural dysfunction and despair.
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where did you go to school? How does this happen?
I went to the University City School District in St. Louis. It was actually a pretty strange place because it's the main district that Wash U (Washington University in St. Louis) is in, so about 10% of the students are children of (mostly white) professors and other very education-oriented professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc). Because of that, top classes (honors and AP) were actually pretty good. I, and many of my…
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#77There are many important factors which teachers (no matter how good they are) can't control: 1. How wealthy, poor, educated, or uneducated a child's parents are. 2. How many resources the school and teacher are given. 3. Whether a child's parents are abusing them at home. 4. Whether a child is witnessing violence, hopelessness, despair in their neighborhood. 5. The attitude of a child's family and friends towards edu…
Whenever teacher/school issues come up, it is important to remember that far beyond anything a school or teacher can do, the single-most important factor in a child's education (or their life in general!) is their PARENTS. If a kid has parents who value education, discipline their kids and make time for learning at home, that kid can do just fine no matter what kind of conditions they experience at school. Conversely, it takes a Stand and Deliver-style superteacher to be able to coax success out of a kid growing up in a home where education is not valued and productive personal habits are not modeled.
The biggest problem with education? There are far, far too many parents out there who have absolutely no business raising children at all. We require tests for people to operate a jet ski, but when it comes to absolute power and responsibility for a human child, anybody can do it! That's your right! Don't worry about saddling the rest of society with your child who doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ending up well-adjusted, educated or successful. It's YOUR kid.
I understand that people who are struggling with extreme poverty are often too caught up with bare survival to find the time to focus on their children's educational needs. That is really awful and sad. It is especially sad for their children.
The fact is, as long as society is full of self-centered, thoughtless parents who either fail to understand the basic components of child-rearing or are too busy surviving to care, we will be plagued with students who are going to struggle no matter how great of an educational system they are placed in.
That being said, perhaps the only way to raise a generation of education-valuing, quality parents is to do what we can to create them. So maybe it is best after all to focus on what CAN be done - effective teaching methods for today's teachers. Hopefully a much-improved school system can help raise the prospects of children whose parents are doing nothing to give them a hand up. And then they in turn can become the kinds of nurturing, education-valuing parents that their own children deserve.
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (whic…
>Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". I don't think this is true. Those who can't afford books can goto the public library and get them.
We toss lots of books in the trash in America, not because we hate books, but because we make so many of them and then need to make room for the new books.
"Able to afford books" was once a status symbol. It's not any more.
See also: http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/10/12/141265066/hard...
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#79I'll have to look at the prior reports, but this 3rd report is somewhat disappointing in terms of its statistical rigor. They do provide weightings based on optimal predictions for maximum accuracy with predictions for state tests scores, although those weights appear to assume a simple linear correlation. Even then, the data suggests that in class observations are almost a complete waste of time (single digit weight…
Yes, this is also the same foundation that spent 1 billion to make schools smaller, because they didn't do simple statistical analysis to find that smaller schools showed much larger variability. Now they're coming back to say "oops, we were wrong." http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/09/the...
Good on him.
Re: Gates Foundation study: We’ve figured out what makes a good teacher
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think you can group one's role as a teacher being equal as one's role as a lead engineer. Why not? Government run education is pathetic. Incentives are all out of whack, there's no competition between teachers or schools that can affect the status quo. Teachers could use a huge dose of whatever it is that the more competitive business world has to deal with.
Schools are the entity least run like a business out of anything else I can think of -- this is at the administrative level. When it comes to teacher competition, it is a different game than Company A winning a competitive contract over Company B. We want both companies to win here (read: both teachers -- or schools). Another problem with this idea is that you can fire obstinate clients. You can't do that with studen…
Just like you'll see recommended on HN, if you're going to fail, fail early and get on with something that has a chance of working. Our government funded education system is a long painful failure that established forces prevent from being scrapped and reinvented.