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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#81

Post by plqbfbv »

jrflowers wrote: post #40
fractallyte wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society. Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their ow…

If you increased Switzerland’s population density by 50% they’d be in a crowded hellhole like (checks notes) Belgium

Yeah, but while Belgium is basically a huge plain, Switzerland is 60% Alps.

If you account for that, the effective density of Switzerland on the usable area is 600–700 people/km².

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#82

Post by herbst »

soco wrote: post #42
fractallyte wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society. Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their ow…

I think I'm totally missing the explanation how my quality of life will increase when Swiss products cannot be sold in the EU anymore because of the price hikes and double bureaucracy - including no more cross-border work. Job loss doesn't say much "quality of life", nor does higher prices on imports.

What products are you thinking? Chocolate and cheese are actually not that relevant as some people want it to be. Gold trade, software, banking however is unlikely to decrease a lot no matter the border rules.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#83

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fractallyte wrote: post #9
jrflo wrote: post #3

So this is essentially a way to reduce immigration to the country? And if they get close to the cap they will "need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification." Would be curious to learn more about why this is being proposed.

It's being proposed in order to maintain quality of life. No one wants to be overcrowded. This is a sane solution: collectively agree on the maximum tolerable population. Then it's down to individual responsibility to obey the norms of one's society. Edit: unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant. Swiss voters have a right to decide how they want to live. They're not beholden to EU laws; they can make their ow…

> unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant

I vote in Switzerland. I’m very much interested in the thoughts and opinions of others on this vote.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#84

Post by herbst »

notimetorelax wrote: post #52

As a voting member of the population all I can say is - good luck winning it… We have silly initiatives once in a while, that’s because you don’t need that much to start one.

Don't look at tiktok then. It seems pretty much won in there.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#85

Post by seydor »

arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

damn, the word 'execute' reverberated interestingly

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#86

Post by plqbfbv »

jrflo wrote: post #3

So this is essentially a way to reduce immigration to the country? And if they get close to the cap they will "need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification." Would be curious to learn more about why this is being proposed.

Moved out last year after 10y in the Zurich area.

There's always been a pull-and-push between getting skilled workers and protecting the internal labor market. Right-wing political parties never made a secret of the fact that they hated immigrants, because they stole jobs and redirected/exported money that would have otherwise been received by Swiss. IIRC this was historically mostly felt in Ticino (the southern region), where Swiss companies sourced very cheap Italian labor by undercutting Swiss salaries by a lot, shrinking the job market for Swiss people (a Swiss can barely get by in Switzerland with an equivalent Italian salary).

Switzerland is geographically in the middle of Europe, but it's not part of the EU. This allowed the country to thrive outside some of the more restrictive EU regulations and keep its own currency, but because it has a smaller job market that can barely replenish the high-skilled workers pool and is often in defect (not just finance bros, but also doctors, for instance), it always had to import workforce from neighboring countries to some extent. Over the last 40 years Switzerland basically opened up to more-or-less follow many EU rules and put in place agreements to have a play in the same market and be allowed to easily keep importing people it needs.

This initiative as I understand it would be equivalent to a Brexit (because sooner or later the cap would be hit, considering more housing keeps being built), which would undo 40 years of openings and IMO greatly weaken the integration with EU, and as a result the country as a whole.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#87

Post by idiotsecant »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #61
ouk wrote: post #14

This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe. This is what the SVP has been trying to do for decades, and this initiative provides them with a convenient excuse. And it’s particularly ironic because the SVP has always opposed legislation promoting sustainability.

> This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe Or their preëmptive re-negotiation. I’m not sure describing it as a trap is fair. Nobody voting on is confused about what the thresholds require. I’m not thrilled at how close they both are. But the fundamental idea of a maximum sustainable population for an Alpine republic isn’t abhorrent to me.

is the idea of economic destruction akin to what the UK has suffered abhorrent to you? In your excitement about the one you might consider the other.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#88

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tonfa wrote: post #79
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the bilateral are a package and the EU doesn't want CH to pick and chose It really depends who is in power where when and if the 10mm limit is crossed. If there is a conservative in Paris or Berlin, chances are Switzerland can simply abrogate Schengen.

Unlike UK, the impact to the EU is minimum and Switzerland doesn't have leverage (if the EU still stands). Of course if you have EU dismantlers in power anyway in FR/DE, they'll just be happy to sabotage.

> unless you're Swiss, your opinion is irrelevant

I think we do bilaterally with our trading partners/border friends.

Freedom of movement across the EU has created a massive backlash. Politicians can keep ignoring that. Or they can modify Schengen, perhaps by admitting that FOM makes immigration decisions a collective one. (Germany letting in a massive wave of immigration means a massive wave of immigrants for everyone.)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#89

Post by soco »

deepspace wrote: post #69
_air wrote: post #29

Switzerland is ranked 67th in country population density. For reference, the United Kingdom is ranked 48th and the United States is ranked 183rd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...

That is an utterly meaningless statistic. Canada, with four times the population, ranks #233, because most of the country is uninhabited / uninhabitable.

> That is an utterly meaningless statistic

It's very meaningful, when the main argument is population overcrowding.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#90

Post by harshalizee »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
jon_adler wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a birth rate or 1.29, they will need to accept immigrants or face the consequences of a declining population. My guess is that in the end, the next generation of old folk will want taking care of.

> With a birth rate or 1.29, they will need to accept immigrants or face the consequences of a declining population Doesn’t the population cap somewhat elegantly deal with this? If birth rates are insufficient, a certain amount of migration is tolerated. The lower births rates go, the more immigration is allowed.

It doesn't work as straightforward as that. To have a healthy immigration channel, especially if you want younger/educated/skilled/etc. the pipeline needs to be active and streamlined. Jobs, housing, a well-beaten path that is predictably navigable is incredibly important for a migrant, since they're taking a lot of risks moving there.

If this referendum blocks EU movement, it will choke the pipeline that's filling positions that takes in a high amount of immigrants like healthcare, agriculture, etc. Once it dies out, people may not be as willing to move if they're the one paving the path.

Historically, the US has been quite successful in this area. Migrants from Philippines dominate nursing, Mexico for agriculture and Chinese/Indians for Sotware/Medical.

The migration path has to be vastly superior to their current living for this to work, if they want the same immigration. Or else, it will be mostly people who are truly in a terrible situation who'd be willing to take a chance.

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