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Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

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Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#81

Post by SoftTalker »

esseph wrote: post #59
blindriver wrote: post #23

Is this a real question? Until the advent of electricity, when it was nighttime, it was mostly pitch black dark, and there was nothing you can really do except go to sleep. These days you're up a lot longer and there are more distractions like work and social media to keep you up well into the night. If you ever go camping with no cell phone signal, you'll go to sleep much earlier as well and get a lot more sleep tha…

> Until the advent of electricity, when it was nighttime, it was mostly pitch black dark, and there was nothing you can really do except go to sleep. Mfw torches and lanterns exist

Yes, but still... I agree that it seems likely that in preindustrial times, most people just went to bed at dark and got up at light. Depending on the season that might be 12 hours or more, so they possibly didn't actally sleep all that time, but they were probably just quietly in their homes/shelters even if they were awake.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#82

Post by dandellion »

joaomoreno wrote: post #71

There's a huge difference between 7 hours of straight sleep which your body decides when to wake up from, and 7 hours of fragmented sleep which is constantly interrupted at the worst possible time. Every single night.

Agreed that being woken up is very stressful, but I suspect it's more the stress that's exhausting than the decrease in sleep itself. I'll share a personal anecdote: A few years back I had trouble sleeping, sometimes I'd wake up multiple times and spend 4 hours awake staring at the clock and only sleep 2 or 3. Eventually I figured that as long as I laid in bed and was somewhat relaxed, I could still function the next day, the actual sleep time didn't make that much of a difference. I also didn't drink coffee or take any stimulants to stay awake or anything like that. The problem went away when I moved out of the city after a year or so, some mild allergy I had went away as well. I'm not claiming it's scientific or anything, just sharing my experience.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#83

Post by esseph »

SoftTalker wrote: post #81
esseph wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until the advent of electricity, when it was nighttime, it was mostly pitch black dark, and there was nothing you can really do except go to sleep. Mfw torches and lanterns exist

Yes, but still... I agree that it seems likely that in preindustrial times, most people just went to bed at dark and got up at light. Depending on the season that might be 12 hours or more, so they possibly didn't actally sleep all that time, but they were probably just quietly in their homes/shelters even if they were awake.

Yes, biphasic sleep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#84

Post by throwawaypath »

doix wrote: post #39
gchamonlive wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The modern model is totally unsustainable/not scalable, but I'm not sure what the alternative should be. It's by design. Kids don't produce capital for the elites. We peasants aren't supposed to have kids, just waste away grinding so that those in power can accumulate more power, because they can pay others and have as many kids as they want, but we from the middle class will struggle with one or two. It's a form o…

> Kids don't produce capital for the elites. Kids eventually grow up and "start producing capital". It's definitely beneficial for the "elite" in the long term for people to have kids.

>Kids eventually grow up and "start producing capital".

They can grow up in third-world countries where elites don't have to spend a dime. Then they lobby to import them by the millions to "start producing capital".

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#85

Post by anon7000 »

yapyap wrote: post #67
cullumsmith wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe counterintuitive, but I've found that having more kids actually makes some things easier. With 4+ children, the kids almost never come to us for entertainment. They form their own little society and find tons of ways to play and interact with each other. The little ones are just as likely to ask one of their older siblings to read them a story as they are to ask a parent, for example. Sure, things like laundry…

Isn’t that just parentifying one or more of your children and passing it off as a solution because it’s easier for you?

I was part of a verrry large family and wasn’t parentified, though it absolutely does happen.

I mean I didn’t want to play with mom, I wanted to run around in the cornfield with my brothers and play capture the flag or something. And having a chore schedule isn’t parentification.

The closest would be the oldest watching the youngers while mom & dad go on a date, but I mean we just put a movie on and there are pretty clear expectations around everything. No different than hiring a local teenager (who you know through a local family) to do brief childcare.

Parentification in my mind has to cross a line where one kid is kind of forced to always have to be responsible for raising the other kid. Like if your parents are really deadbeat and one kid actually takes responsibility.

A lot of people don't really get big families, which makes sense. You just have a different definition of “normal” for certain things because big families just HAVE to operate differently in a lot of ways, and a lot of norms we expect are products of living a specific way in your formative years. That’s just different, not necessarily bad

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#86

Post by pizzafeelsright »

conception wrote: post #42
pizzafeelsright wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got two 'village' responses which I fully disagree with because a dozen reasons. The village is not going to help you change diapers, feed the children, or do anything except have the children play together. I do not find parenting that difficult because I parent differently. The alternative: Teach them to entertain themselves. They clean up their own messes. I have the kiddos do tasks with me. Babies are easy en…

Historically, the village 100% changed diaper, feed your children, nursed and generally helped out. Aunts, cousins, parents, friends all pitched in in the community to care for children.

I have been to many places, in different cultures, and countries. Outside of blood relationships and church, I have not seen a villager change a diaper for another without compensation.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#87

Post by dangus »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #86
conception wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, the village 100% changed diaper, feed your children, nursed and generally helped out. Aunts, cousins, parents, friends all pitched in in the community to care for children.

I have been to many places, in different cultures, and countries. Outside of blood relationships and church, I have not seen a villager change a diaper for another without compensation.

You weren’t alive before industrial society.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#88

Post by bobmcnamara »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #86
conception wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, the village 100% changed diaper, feed your children, nursed and generally helped out. Aunts, cousins, parents, friends all pitched in in the community to care for children.

I have been to many places, in different cultures, and countries. Outside of blood relationships and church, I have not seen a villager change a diaper for another without compensation.

It's not free labor, it's a community effort, and the compensation goes both ways in a village!

Our friends would be at our place a couple days a week and at my parent's friend's place a couple days a week.

Sure if you're not pulling your share some other compensation would be expected.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#89

Post by cullumsmith »

yapyap wrote: post #67
cullumsmith wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe counterintuitive, but I've found that having more kids actually makes some things easier. With 4+ children, the kids almost never come to us for entertainment. They form their own little society and find tons of ways to play and interact with each other. The little ones are just as likely to ask one of their older siblings to read them a story as they are to ask a parent, for example. Sure, things like laundry…

Isn’t that just parentifying one or more of your children and passing it off as a solution because it’s easier for you?

The phenomenon of 1.2 children per family living a living a childhood of endless leisure until being thrust into the world of adult responsibility at age 18 was totally unknown to humanity until about 5 minutes ago.

Sometimes a kid has to wash dishes. Other times he has to read his kid brother a bedtime story. I promise, they'll survive. They might even be better off as adults, being well-accustomed to small acts of charity and self-denial.

Re: Why modern parents feel more sleep deprived than our ancestors did

#90

Post by SoftTalker »

> When Samson stayed with the Hadza, he described common parenting practices in the US, such as encouraging babies to sleep separately from their caregivers. "They looked at me like I was insane," says Samson. "They were like, 'Why? Why? Why?'… I felt bad almost asking the question."

We had our twins sleep with us for about a year. They slept better, we slept better. During daytime naps, they slept in their own room and beds so that was not totally foreign to them when we switched them to sleeping there at night.

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