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How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

nytimes.com

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Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#81

Post by Amezarak »

quickthrowman wrote: post #78
Amezarak wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s more than a thousand fatal US police shootings every year with various levels of justification, many impacting people totally innocent of anything, even if we accept your propagandized mischaracterization of what happened. (I don’t blame you for this. It’s being pushed hard, and the other sides propaganda is no more truthful.) Aside from regular shootings, Obama (perhaps not so famously) killed a 16 year old…

> There’s more than a thousand fatal US police shootings every year with various levels of justification, many impacting people totally innocent of anything, even if we accept your propagandized mischaracterization of what happened. (I don’t blame you for this. It’s being pushed hard, and the other sides propaganda is no more truthful.) What usually happens when a municipal, county, or state law enforcement officer (…

Most of the time there’s a brief internal investigation and then nothing happens to them, because they’re given enormous latitude and discretion, even when the victim was totally innocent. If you want a very notorious and similarly politicized example, look at what happened to the federal agent that killed Vicki Weaver: the feds refused to do anything to them, and the local case was initially shut down due to sovereign immunity for federal agents and then later abandoned.

If you want a more recent famous case, consider the shooting of Craig Robertson: the FBI says he was armed and shot him dead, agents cleared after an internal investigation and we’ll never know if he was armed or not (I’d guess yes.) That’s it.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#82

Post by _DeadFred_ »

kreetx wrote: post #71
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit 2: Before reading on don't bother, this person isn't American so has no understanding of what the words they are typing mean in the American system, that immigration judges aren't Article III criminal judges, that immigration violations are civil violations not criminal, etc. Being honest/truthful really doesn't matter to you folks, does it? You made a claim that was bullshit to try and sway people. And are will…

Isn't "due process" for an illegal immigrant already happened in the sense that they are determined to be an illegal? Trump had deporting illegals in his campaign and got mandate from the people. You don't seem to believe in democracy instead. Edit: The note about pending charges is just a note. Trump's platform was to deport all illegal immigrants, not only who have been convicted of other crimes as well (they did s…

You talk about America yet don't understand our most basic concept of law. "These people just haven't been convicted - yet." is so fucking anti-American it's crazy to see someone just drop it as a rebuttal here.

You added that after your claim: "ICE is also deporting mostly criminals"

You then try to wordsmith criminal into to 'illegal immigrants'. These people are being deported on Civil law violations. Not criminal. If it was criminal ICE wouldn't be able to use immigration courts and their special carvouts for not following the constitution. You don't seem to understand any American basic civics in addition to your not understanding your own statement 'ICE is also deporting mostly criminals'

You're further expanding makes your original statement obvious bad faith spin that wasn't true and that you didn't actually care about.

I have never been registered as a Democrat in my life, and was libertarian for the majority of it. Again you ignorantly make statements you have zero idea are true or not. Democracy isn't 'I won, I get to throw away the system of laws and violate the constitution'.

Edit: Got it, by saying "ICE is also deporting mostly criminals" what you meant was everyone they deport they have determined (in Immigration court and by immigration judges not real Article III judges on civil violations and not in Criminal court under criminal law violations sentenced by real Article III Judges) 'are criminals'. You don't understand American civics. You don't understand the definition of the word 'criminal'. You don't understand Democracy doesn't mean 'free to do whatever you want when elected' mob rule.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#83

Post by mindslight »

kreetx wrote: post #80
mindslight wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't start at the point the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her. That's equivalent to equating legality with morality, which doesn't work when talking about what ought to be. Rather you have to examine the entire situation, which was an extreme escalation by ICE in response to what was essentially protesting.

There was no pretext to execute her. It's when she started driving (even spun the wheels I think) towards the officer were shots fired. In your mind, does police getaway equate with protesting now?

As I said, you're starting at a point where the ICE agent had already set up his pretext to execute her.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#84

Post by kreetx »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #82
kreetx wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't "due process" for an illegal immigrant already happened in the sense that they are determined to be an illegal? Trump had deporting illegals in his campaign and got mandate from the people. You don't seem to believe in democracy instead. Edit: The note about pending charges is just a note. Trump's platform was to deport all illegal immigrants, not only who have been convicted of other crimes as well (they did s…

You talk about America yet don't understand our most basic concept of law. "These people just haven't been convicted - yet." is so fucking anti-American it's crazy to see someone just drop it as a rebuttal here. You added that after your claim: "ICE is also deporting mostly criminals" You then try to wordsmith criminal into to 'illegal immigrants'. These people are being deported on Civil law violations. Not criminal…

Right. The original poster who was saying that only ("only"!) 29% of January deportees have been convicted, that is correct. To this I added that that percentage doesn't account for ongoing charges (also true, right?). No disagreement in the percentage arguments.

The rest of the immigrants are still illegally in the country, no? Wasn't deporting them on the campaign platform that got the mandate? What is "the system" if not this?

If your interpretation of the constitution is that as long as you are "protesting" then you can do anything, be anywhere, including whistle along an ongoing police operation then I can tell you that that interpretation is not correct. If it were, any criminal (not need be immigrant) would say that they were "protesting", while robbing a store or doing any other random actually criminal thing.

Edit: I get what you are saying, too, but the practical solution isn't to keep current illegal immigrants in, as in that case anyone attempting to enter legally should just switch to enter illegally as that is more efficient. (I.e, if there is some country-wide entry rate, then the currently illegally entered have succeeded by jumping the line.)

The above is also the platform that was voted into office not long ago. This does look like democracy to me.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#85

Post by tharmas »

Herring wrote: post #79

The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons. htt…

[flagged]

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#87

Post by dyauspitr »

Amezarak wrote: post #77
dyauspitr wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to conveniently ignore the 4th amendment violations and the ignored court orders. Obama had “fast-track” deportations but also convenient ignore that this administration is doing it under the aliens enemies act which is a wartime authorization and most importantly deporting people to “third” countries.

What fourth amendment violations do you think are unprecedented? The Alien Enemies Act is one of our oldest laws and was passed by John Adams during peacetime to suppress perceived foreign influence from migrants. Deportations to third countries are pretty clearly the only solution to cases where immigrants have a final order of removal that has been suspended due to problems in their home country, or where their hom…

ICE directives that allow for entering a home without a judicial warrant.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#88

Post by mothballed »

Herring wrote: post #79

The problem with these threads is everybody wants to complain about Trump, but nobody wants to talk about policies that actually help buffer against the far-right. Eg implementing robust safety nets and low inequality, to reduce status anxiety and grievance. How many of you software engineers want to sign up for European-style welfare states and pay for them with high taxes? It's basically tragedy of the commons. htt…

Welfare state and loose illegal immigration enforcement are at odds policies. Remember in US illegal immigrants can still get WIC and public schooling and their reward for popping out a child is the child now has citizenship and the benefits of such-- those European countries you mention don't normally offer unrestricted jus soli citizenship.

It's 'safety net' itself that helps fuel the immigration rage and delivers people into the hands of the right-wing.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#89

Post by _DeadFred_ »

kreetx wrote: post #84
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk about America yet don't understand our most basic concept of law. "These people just haven't been convicted - yet." is so fucking anti-American it's crazy to see someone just drop it as a rebuttal here. You added that after your claim: "ICE is also deporting mostly criminals" You then try to wordsmith criminal into to 'illegal immigrants'. These people are being deported on Civil law violations. Not criminal…

Right. The original poster who was saying that only ("only"!) 29% of January deportees have been convicted, that is correct. To this I added that that percentage doesn't account for ongoing charges (also true, right?). No disagreement in the percentage arguments. The rest of the immigrants are still illegally in the country, no? Wasn't deporting them on the campaign platform that got the mandate? What is "the system"…

W̶e̶l̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶ ̶b̶u̶d̶d̶y̶.̶ We were founded on the fucking Boston Tea Party. Yeah, we trade off conveniences in policing for freedom of the people. I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶l̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶v̶e̶. There are plenty of non-freedom loving countries out there.

I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶i̶v̶i̶c̶s̶. You seem kind of ignorant to like the basic premise of our nation or how/why we arrived at it.

Edit: My bad for being hard on you. I assumed you were American and we were talking from a common framework of understanding. American democracy was created to prevent mob rule, not enable it. You can run on whatever you want, it doesn't mean that what you run on is allowed under our system of laws, even if popular with the mob. Most of our families were forced to flee to the USA because 'the mob' wanted us dead, or to criminalize our existence, or force us to change religions. WE FUCKING HATE MOB RULE, AND WE FUCKING HATE KINGS WITH UNCHECKED POWER. Immigration law is not criminal law in the USA (it's a loophole to apply lower standards than the Constitution requires). Immigration courts aren't finding someone as being a criminal, they are finding a civil law violation. Immigration judges aren't real judges. Article III Judges are real judges as empowered by the Constitution.

Re: How ICE knows who Minneapolis protesters are

#90

Post by kreetx »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #89
kreetx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. The original poster who was saying that only ("only"!) 29% of January deportees have been convicted, that is correct. To this I added that that percentage doesn't account for ongoing charges (also true, right?). No disagreement in the percentage arguments. The rest of the immigrants are still illegally in the country, no? Wasn't deporting them on the campaign platform that got the mandate? What is "the system"…

W̶e̶l̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶ ̶b̶u̶d̶d̶y̶.̶ We were founded on the fucking Boston Tea Party. Yeah, we trade off conveniences in policing for freedom of the people. I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶e̶l̶c̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶v̶e̶. There are plenty of non-freedom loving countries out there. I̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶l̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶e̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶…

I don't live in the US. Also I edited my parent answer (but no need to edit yours. Continue below at will.)

I maintain that what was voted in the office a year ago was to deport the illegals, not only those who have committed other crimes as well. I might just as well say that you are ignorant of the democratic process instead. And if you think that the US will be a "free entry" country as it was after the discovery of the continent then I guess you live at a part of the country where the newly arrived immigrants aren't disturbing your life yet.

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