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Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

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Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#81

Post by Ekaros »

mc32 wrote: post #23

I get that students are using the LLM crutch -and who wouldn’t? What I don’t get is why wouldn’t they act like an editor and add their own voice to the writing. The heavy lifting was done now you just have to polish it by hand. Is that too hard to do?

Those looking for shortcuts look for easiest and fastest and least effort shortcuts. Also unlike when they are themselves doing the copying and get the feeling I really should change things so I won't get caught, same won't happen when something is generated for them. As it probably looks unique enough.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#82

Post by armchairhacker »

bambax wrote: post #41
threemux wrote: post #34

In person, proctored blue book exams are back! Sharpen those pencils kids. I've been wondering lately if one of the good things to come out of heavy LLM use will be a return to mostly in-person interactions once nothing that happens online is trustworthy anymore.

Yes! This "problem" is really easy to fix with in person exams and no computers in class, ever.

There should be computers, just locked down ones that don’t leave the classroom. With today’s tuitions, colleges can afford a computer for every student.

Writing code on paper is frustrating to the point where, beyond small algorithms, it’s probably not an effective metric (to test performance on real-world tasks). I think even essays may not be as good a metric for writing quality when written vs typed, although the difference is probably smaller. Because e.g. being able to insert a line in the middle of the text, or find-and-replace, are much harder. Also, some people (like me) are especially bad at handwriting: my hand hurts after writing a couple paragraphs, and my handwriting is illegible to most people. While some people are especially bad at typing, they get accommodations like an alternative keyboard or dictation, whereas the accommodation for bad handwriting is…a computer (I was fortunate to get one for exams in the 2010s).

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#83

Post by Espressosaurus »

zkmon wrote: post #66
Espressosaurus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A calculator is more consistent and faster at calculating than I am, but I still need to understand how to multiply, divide, add, and subtract before I can move on to more complicated math. I need to intuitively understand when I'm getting a garbage result because I did an operation wrong, moved a decimal place by accident, or other problem. Memorization has a place, and is a requirement for having a large enough kno…

> A calculator is more consistent and faster at calculating than I am, but I still need to understand how to multiply, divide, add, and subtract.. Exactly. If the calculator knows what to do and how to do, you just need to be able to specify a high level goal, instead of worrying about whether to add or multiply.

I need to be able to tell when it's garbage in garbage out and I can't do that when I don't understand the operations in question.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#84

Post by Swizec »

apatheticonion wrote: post #61
2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #52

I don't see the whole AI topic as a large crisis, as others have mentioned: put more emphasis on in-person tests and exams. Make it clear that homework assignments are for practice, learning, and feedback. If a person thinks that copy/pasting helps them, give them the freedom to so, but if as a result they fail the exams and similar in-person evaluations, then so be it. Let them fail. I would like to hire students wh…

It's a huge problem. I have several friends in university who have had assignments flagged as AI. They have had entire units failed and forced to retake semesters which is not cheap. Even if you fight it, the challenge goes into the next semester and pushes out your study timeline and associated costs. > put more emphasis on in-person tests and exams. Make it clear that homework assignments are for practice, learning…

> > put more emphasis on in-person tests and exams. Make it clear that homework assignments are for practice, learning, and feedback. If a person thinks that copy/pasting helps them

> Works for high school, not so much for university degrees. What's crazy is universities have an incentive to flag your work as AI generated as it forces the student to pay more money and is difficult to challenge.

When I started uni (slovenia, 2007) the rules were simple: You are adults. The final exam (written + oral) is 100% of your grade. We don’t have the time or willingness to police what you do. Strongly recommend attending classes and doing homework but whatever it’s your life. If you get high enough scores on the optional midterms, you can skip the written portion of the exam.

It was pretty great. Yes we all tried to cram for exams at the last moment. No it didn’t work very well. Needing 2 or 3 tries to pass was common.

Then later we got the bologna system. Professors stopped bragging about fail rates. Students passing became an actual thing they were evaluated on. Homework became graded, midterms were mandatory and part of your grade, attendance was tracked, etc.

College became like high school. More people passed but I think something was lost about teaching adulthood.

For the record: I didn’t graduate. My freelance business got too busy and I could not keep up with both.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#85

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Ekaros wrote: post #79
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until they need to start learning how to use them to get a job in the modern world? There should be a class that teaches you how to use AI to get things done, especially judging on how many even on HN admit they aren’t good at it.

Is there even a point until field properly stabilise? Even with more fundamental stuff there is complaints that material is outdated. And even AI proponents seem to tell that things are still evolving and you need to do something in new way regularly.

If the tech is already good enough to cheat with? Ya, I think the kids are ready to learn it, even if just keeps improving in the coming years. It also helps you reflect on the process of doing something when you instruct someone else to do it for you. Writing a good essay and getting AI to write a good essay for you are both useful things to do as students.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#86

Post by bambax »

meroes wrote: post #45
bambax wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! This "problem" is really easy to fix with in person exams and no computers in class, ever.

This is the “back to office” of education. It is not a one size fits all solution. There are so many remote and hybrid classes now you guys sound outdated.

You don't need uni to watch youtube; you can do that on your own, for free. "Remote classes" are obviously a scam.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#87

Post by TomasBM »

HeavyStorm wrote: post #17

This ship has sailed. It's how it was with the internet. I grew up in the 90s, and teacher didn't know how to deal with the fact we no longer had to go through multiple books in the library to get the information they needed. We barely needed to write it. Now nobody expects students to not use the internet. Same here: teachers must accept that AI can and will write papers and answer questions / do homework. How you t…

There is an obvious reason why LLM use should be discouraged in classwork focused on writing: the process that's needed for a brain to learn the skills can't be outsourced.

The Internet is different. Even with access to websites like Wikipedia, you had to write your own content. Plagiarism was easily detectable.

We shouldn't confuse "we don't have a solution at the moment" with "we should completely abandon no-LLM education". Like with social media, we can always change the direction of progress.

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#88

Post by ethin »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #59
ethin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also disadvantages people with disabilities. How exactly are they supposed to do these papers and tests? Dictate everything to someone else, using Blindness as an example? Because that seems very very inefficient and extremely error-prone.

As someone with an actual visual impairment, please do not attempt to use my affliction to justify generalized use of AI. Educational assistance for those with disabilities is not a new thing; AI is likely going to have a role but how remains exactly to be seen.

As someone who myself is legally blind, I am in no way justifying the use of AI like this. I was responding to the entire "let's all go back to actual paper-based tests/assignments" trope that was being trotted out on here. Sure, it (might) work, but it also disadvantages people like us, since most teachers can't read braille (at least, none of mine could).

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#89

Post by idiotsecant »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #28
idiotsecant wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just about the worst possible response it seems. It manages to probably hurt some wrists not used to long handwriting sessions, completely avoid learning how to use and attribute AI responsibly, and still probably just results in kids handwriting AI generated slop, anyway.

> It manages to probably hurt some wrists not used to long handwriting sessions I'm sorry but, lmao. You cannot be serious. > attribute AI Oh no! > still probably just results in kids handwriting AI generated slop Not if they're doing it in person. And at least they then need to look at it.

So, your whole point boils down to 'do it in person', so what's the point of handwriting it then? The whole handwriting thing is performative in either case, it's pointless. Why not specify that it be written in cuniform?

Re: Students using “humanizer” programs to beat accusations of cheating with AI

#90

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

zkmon wrote: post #68
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Knowledge retention skills? Knowledge correlations or knowledge expression skills? None of these going to be useful or required from humans. " I'm fascinated by these claims from some LLM advocates that people will no longer need to know things, think, or express themselves properly. What value then will such individuals bring to the table to justify their pay? Will they be like Sigourney Weaver's character in Ga…

> What value then will they bring to the table to justify their pay? They are skillful in shepherding a population of AI agents towards goals.

Merely that? A trivial skill that the well educated will do far better than those who are not?
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