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Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

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Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#81

Post by jorvi »

thisislife2 wrote: post #54

Nice. But I stopped using Orion on macOS when they stopped offering complete offline installers. They taut they are a zero-telemetry browser, as proof that they are privacy conscious about user data, and that was a good feature and overture. But then when they create technical avenues to (possibly) bypass that (like using online installers that can do all kind of data collection) it becomes harder to trust them as it…

I really like Kagi because of all the features and just generally letting me be a user instead of a product, but they have some weird kludges sometimes.

The weirdest choice at the moment is by default Kagi sends a referrer when you visit a search result. There's currently ~65.000 Kagi subscribers worldwide, so just that lone data point completely destroys any anti-fingerprinting you're doing. And probably these subscribers are divided among time regions, so not all are active at the same time.

Even if you are on a VPN and visit site #1, then site #2, you are already cross-site trackable because it is very unlikely you are on the same VPN vendor (and endpoint) as the other subscribers. If you add in more data points like browser, OS, screen size and the like it becomes even more grim.

They have the referrer enabled because it helps make admins aware I guess.

You can turn it off (Settings > Privacy > Hide Kagi referrer), but defaults matter.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#82

Post by JohnFen »

idiotsecant wrote: post #66
JohnFen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). Probably true in general. But for me, that's not a sticking point at all. I don't care if a browser supports media playback or not. What I do care about is the ability to enable/disable embedded code execution (JS, at the very least) at a fairly granular level. Does Orion allow for that?

You are, you recognize, a tiny minority?

Did I not make that clear with "Probably true in general."?

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#83

Post by Fiveplus »

jwcooper wrote: post #61
Fiveplus wrote: post #35

This is a healthy thing to happen to the Linux browser ecosystem imho. We talk a lot about browser diversity, but on Linux and Windows, it is a lie. You have firefox (gecko) and fifty flavors of chromium. Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser, which I'll admit while is a noble effort, lags a bit in the stability and power-user features department. Big reason…

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. If Kagi can legally and technically solve the widevine integration on a non-standard Linux webkit build, they win. If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I'm hopeful that some day Linux will have enough users where the media companies can't ignore them. Ho…

Hmm good point. The issue is also the distinction between widevine L1, i.e hardware-backed DRM and L3 (the software backed one).

Correct me if I'm wrong but to stream 4K, studios require a hardware root of trust and a verified media path. They need a guarantee that the video frames are decrypted inside a trusted execution environment and sent directly to the display without the OS kernel or user space being able to read the raw buffer.

AFAIK Windows and macOS provide this pipeline at the OS level. OTOH, ChromeOS gets 1080p/4K not because it has massive market share but cause the hardware and boot chain are locked down by the almighty Google.

On desktop Linux, where you have root access and can modify the kernel or compositor to inspect memory, there is technically no way to guarantee that secure path to the studios' satisfaction. Am I right in this assumption?

Unless the DRM providers change their threat model, which sounds unlikely to me. Or distros start shipping signed and locked-down kernel modules that prevent the user from being root, which is again unacceptable to most (me included), we will likely be capped at 720p for some time now.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#84

Post by bikelang »

Phelinofist wrote: post #39

Whats special about Orion? Why would I use it instead of FF or even Chromium?

The built in ad blocker is phenomenal. Only Brave is as good on this front. It supports extensions from both FF and Chromium. It has a really neat integration with Kagi private search in private tabs. Kagi as a company has generally pretty good ethics and respects their users. That’s enough to make it compelling for me.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#85

Post by packetlost »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #79
packetlost wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a major sticking point for most people though and a very large blocker for wider Linux desktop adoption.

We like Linux adoption around these parts. But don't we like it because linux doesn't let companies mistreat it's users? If users are unwilling to opt out of that abuse then I think its OK that their migration to Linux remains mildly inconvenient.

DRM sucks, but the time to thrash against it is has passed. It's here, it's not going away, and users expect to be able to use their browsers to watch protected content.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#86

Post by Fiveplus »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #76
Fiveplus wrote: post #35

This is a healthy thing to happen to the Linux browser ecosystem imho. We talk a lot about browser diversity, but on Linux and Windows, it is a lie. You have firefox (gecko) and fifty flavors of chromium. Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser, which I'll admit while is a noble effort, lags a bit in the stability and power-user features department. Big reason…

I don't disagree with you about a new browser being a good thing but ... > If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I don't even have sound on my main desktop PC: the one I use the most. The one I do all my "life admin" stuff from (banking, real estate, etc.), all my work emails, all my coding. I think sound works but I haven't bothered to plug in speakers to check (since three years, wh…

Yeah, that was a bit harsh on my part. I removed that bit, apologies. Had no intention of coming across as crude.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#87

Post by Zambyte »

IgorPartola wrote: post #51
Zambyte wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even better, a computer that does things when told.

If you can tell me what phone can give me access to all the standard apps I would need, has good build quality, doesn’t funnel my data to Google, is backed by an entity capable of providing multi-year device support, has cloud storage integration that lets me keep my data securely offloaded from the phone’s storage, can handle modern apps and websites as far as performance, has a very good camera, and has the equival…

I haven't found one. I don't carry a phone unless I have a specific reason (ie: gps). I use my desktop or tablet (Daylight Computer) with a voip service (jmp.chat) when I need to use a phone number, and I carry a Sony ZV-1 in my pocket for my camera.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#88

Post by JohnFen »

bastawhiz wrote: post #77
thisislife2 wrote: post #54

Nice. But I stopped using Orion on macOS when they stopped offering complete offline installers. They taut they are a zero-telemetry browser, as proof that they are privacy conscious about user data, and that was a good feature and overture. But then when they create technical avenues to (possibly) bypass that (like using online installers that can do all kind of data collection) it becomes harder to trust them as it…

> online installers that can do all kind of data collection "Can" is doing a lot of work here. A browser's whole purpose is to be online, after all. If they were trying to collect information about you, they really don't need the installer to be the thing that does it. It would be an impressive reversal of their whole premise as a business if their browser's installer was the piece that was violating your privacy and…

> A browser's whole purpose is to be online, after all.

Not its whole purpose. I use browsers offline fairly often.

Offline installers (for any piece of software) are important to me because they allow me to keep a backup of the installer and won't restrict me when I don't have internet access. Keeping a backup is important because it lets me install older versions of the software when needed.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#89

Post by mikae1 »

Fiveplus wrote: post #35

This is a healthy thing to happen to the Linux browser ecosystem imho. We talk a lot about browser diversity, but on Linux and Windows, it is a lie. You have firefox (gecko) and fifty flavors of chromium. Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser, which I'll admit while is a noble effort, lags a bit in the stability and power-user features department. Big reason…

> Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser

Don't forget about https://falkon.org. It's a browser I enjoy using. WebExtension support will be big if it lands in Orion though.

EDIT: apparently Orion is not open source. Not particularly interested in a closed source browser, TBH. In 2022 they said they plan to open source "when there is merit"[1], whatever that means. No merit yet, it seems.

[1] https://orionfeedback.org/d/3882-open-source-the-browser/2

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#90

Post by gumby271 »

fainpul wrote: post #33
troad wrote: post #7

Wild that I can't use Kagi in Safari on iOS, where my search options are still locked down to three~four Apple-approved choices, of which at least one is just a multi-billion-dollar paid product placement. (Yes, I know about the extension that hijacks your searches to redirect them to Kagi, but how is that an acceptable state of affairs?)

Since search engines are queried with a URL with a parameter for the search term, browsers could simply allow "power users" to enter a custom URL. Voilà — support for every imaginable search engine and they can still make their billion dollar deals for providing default search engines. That's how Firefox does it.

I think thats how everyone but Apple does it.
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