Live data from Hacker News

Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

blog.mozilla.org

81–90 of 147 posts

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#81
post #74

I wonder how AI has survived Germany's seemingly strict copyright law.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20230601STO...

This is for the whole EU, not just Germany, but there's no reason why Germany couldn't employ further restrictions.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#82
post #57
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it make sense? If I buy a book I'm entitled to rip out pages and black marker words. What's the difference to removing text or images of my choice while viewing a website?

It’s an unauthorized modification (and production of a derivative work) of a copyrighted work.

Which is not illegal for personal usage. You are just not allowed to share it, or even resell it. And even this has special cases.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#83
post #79

The day I cannot have my ad blocker anymore is the day I'll say goodbye to the world wide web.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. This is nothing different than "reddit boycott" or "politician x gets elected and I'm out of here"

Sounds nice. But isn't remotely feasible

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#84
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an alternative technology that allows people to use websites without flashing ads?

screen readers / text based browsers / etc.

I don’t want to use a “separate but equal” Internet. Screen readers support very specific situations that don’t apply to me. I see using them as the equivalent of tweaking my knee and having to sit in a wheelchair so that I can just use wheelchair accommodations and call it a day. Nah. I don’t want to use a wheelchair or a screen reader because those devices weren’t made for my own needs and don’t suit me.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#85
Why should I as a user get exposed to garbage that I don't care about in addition to the actual content I'm interested in?

Well, one possible answer is that the content provider only actually provides that content under the condition that I look at the ads. After all, a lot of content providers are businesses and they don't like to give out content for free.

My stance has always been that for 99% of the stuff I consume on the internet, my condition is that I can access it the way I, as the end user / customer, prefer. And if you as the provider insist otherwise, my reaction will almost always be that I won't look at to your garbage ads but instead I'll just go somewhere else for content.

Or just read a book, ad-free [0].

[0] https://archive.is/KHPwt

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#86

A friend raised what I consider a very valid point, that ad blockers are assistive technology for people with ADHD. They prevent the web from being an unusable mess of shiny distraction. And as such, in America, blocking ad blockers is a violation of the ADA. I’m being completely serious here and so is he. I can barely use the web without ad blockers. They make it possible for me to participate in online life. Remove…

I feel like tools like screentime would fit that description better than adblockers.

How do you figure? If a website takes me 5 minutes to visit with an ad blocker and 10 without, then answer isn’t to timebox that visit to 5 minutes. That just means I only get to accomplish half my goal of visiting it.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#87
post #83
post #79

The day I cannot have my ad blocker anymore is the day I'll say goodbye to the world wide web.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. This is nothing different than "reddit boycott" or "politician x gets elected and I'm out of here" Sounds nice. But isn't remotely feasible

It absolutely is for me, but I'm probably twice your age and use the internet only leisurely. I don't do social media, I don't use a smart phone, so yeah, I'm certainly an edge case, but no internet would be fine for me easily.

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#88

A friend raised what I consider a very valid point, that ad blockers are assistive technology for people with ADHD. They prevent the web from being an unusable mess of shiny distraction. And as such, in America, blocking ad blockers is a violation of the ADA. I’m being completely serious here and so is he. I can barely use the web without ad blockers. They make it possible for me to participate in online life. Remove…

Actually, the German copyright law explicitly allows people with limited vision or with limited reading ability (not defined precisely in the law) to use assistive technology in order to transfer a work into a more accessible version¹.

So, ad-blocker companies might argue that they are just providing assistive technology to people with diagnosed ADHD. Copyright holders would then need to go after the users of such software. (IANAL)

¹) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/urhg/__45b.html

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I am a huge fan of ad blockers, and as some one with ADHD I am very sympathetic to the argument, I suspect that your friend is not a lawyer, and/or is not very familiar with the limitations of the ADA.

He is not, nor am I, but I don’t see a reason you and I shouldn’t get the same legal protections as other groups. What about blind people who pipe the output of a screen through text-to-speech? Or people with epilepsy who can’t use flashy screens? Or someone who needs to enlarge print or change its contrast? There are plenty of medical reasons to need to alter their browser presentations.

>He is not, nor am I, but I don’t see a reason you and I shouldn’t get the same legal protections as other groups

But what ARE those legal protections? That's the really complicated bit isn't it? ADA does not simply mandate anything anyone could imagine at any price, and there still isn't a huge amount of caselaw when it comes to the web. FWIW in this specific case I think there is some basis, but it doesn't seem clearly established either. The natural starting point is the government ADA site's own guidance [0], and that in turn cites the W3's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines as helpful. In turn, that has section 2.3 covering "Seizures and Physical Reactions". But that's specifically about physical effects, does mere distraction count, and at what threshold? Like, it says no more than 3 flashes per second, but if a site ensures it's just blinking once per second, you might still find that distracting but it's not clear there's any case under ADA unless you can point to some other precedent (or establish one yourself). Would offering a pay option that eliminates all ads be a reasonable accommodation or not? Did they make a good enough effort if they pick a major ad network that promises compliance? I don't know, but it doesn't seem cut and dry.

And all of that is about the website owner's responsibilities, not 3rd parties. Like, it doesn't seem clear to me there is any legal requirement for a given web browser to create/maintain APIs for ad blocking under ADA, and any such case would run into complex speech and other considerations particularly in the case of an open source browser (the same challenges also protect from the US government ever trying to ban them).

I think you have a decent moral/political argument which is important, but I guess just realize the legal aspects are complex. And that's before touching on the practical ones.

----

0: https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance/

1: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#seizures-and-physical-reaction...

Re: Is Germany on the brink of banning ad blockers?

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is not, nor am I, but I don’t see a reason you and I shouldn’t get the same legal protections as other groups. What about blind people who pipe the output of a screen through text-to-speech? Or people with epilepsy who can’t use flashy screens? Or someone who needs to enlarge print or change its contrast? There are plenty of medical reasons to need to alter their browser presentations.

Sounds like images are illegal

You may find this story relevant and helpful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44801718
Post reply on HN