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VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

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Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#81

Post by bluGill »

gambiting wrote: post #12
barbegal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take these corporations to court these arguments don't stand up. In your oil example, if you had a warranty claim due to say a broken suspension component then the type of engine oil used wouldn't be relevant. It just allows them to try to weasel their way out of claims.

...that is exactly what I said? Dealers will(and do!) just reject any warranty claim based on the fact that you haven't serviced the car with an official dealer. You can show them all the documents and laws and they will just ignore you. Taking them to court works but it just ends up costing you time and money.

Dealers do not reject claims. They make a large portion of their income from claims. The manufacture rejects claims. if you use the dealer for service they have records of that and so can sometimes prove that the relavent maitenance was done correctly but they want the money from warranty work either way and so they lose if the claim is rejected.

they make money from regular service as well and want you for that. However warranty work is too valuable to them to ignore

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#82

Post by f1shy »

checkyoursudo wrote: post #26

I have a really hard time understanding why we as a society (or various societies) are okay these kinds of things. Sure, I understand that there is little I can do about it, but why are powerful people okay with their car company or phone company knowing everything about them? Are people in California and the EU at least covered by data privacy laws?

I am by no means ok with it. And I try to vote with my money when I buy.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#83

Post by KoftaBob »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #38
harha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is also quite involved by making sure that a car can’t simply be a car anymore but needs a lot of complex systems that may ore may not work as intended, like remote capabilities etc.

It's all part of a plan. The EU is very busy setting up the equivalent of the chinese "social credit". It started with "ESG" rating by banks (where you're already attributed an ESG rating depending on which companies you invest your money in) and now it's likely they'll be moving forward with computing your yearly carbon emission to then decide if you can go on vacation or not and how far. Don't underestimate the glo…

I asked ChatGPT to fact check all of this, enjoy: https://chatgpt.com/share/677297b2-6ea0-8013-a376-7c14f78d96...

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#84

Post by f1shy »

lobsterthief wrote: post #43
bboygravity wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the incentive for company leadership to spend resources on security currently? As long as there's no incentive to improve security, there will be no security. Examples of incentive: laws. Fix security or you can't sell your product, if you can't sell product you don't get a bonus or get fired. Don't gather location data if it's not critical for the functioning of the car or you can't sell your product, etc.

In my experience it’s really up to technical leadership to highlight what will happen if security flaws are ignored. If more senior leadership continues to ignore these issues, then it’s a culture issue and I wouldn’t stick around. Surely it’s all about risk mitigation; some out-of-date NPM package with a minor flaw might cause the can to be kicked, but a major flaw with demonstrable consequences should get priority.

You have a point. The problem in the german car industry there is no technical leadership. From the bottom management upwards they are all politicians. No technical people.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#85

Post by f1shy »

mejutoco wrote: post #60
bboygravity wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the incentive for company leadership to spend resources on security currently? As long as there's no incentive to improve security, there will be no security. Examples of incentive: laws. Fix security or you can't sell your product, if you can't sell product you don't get a bonus or get fired. Don't gather location data if it's not critical for the functioning of the car or you can't sell your product, etc.

GDPR already exists. It just needs to be enforced in this context.

Against VW? Ha ha ha!

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#86

Post by simoncion »

gambiting wrote: post #9
pluc wrote: post #6

This is why you don't bring your car for service at dealers. On "dumb" cars, that's when the transfer happens and it can be location data and even car audio. That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen, because when it isn't stolen, they make money selling your location data, and that's the real product. Weaponizing convenience, as usual.

If you bought a brand new car, the loss of warranty is not worth not bringing it to the dealer. If you have a car already out of warranty then absolutely, service it anywhere else. But we have an EV and the 8 year warranty on the battery is also dependent on servicing the car within the dealer network, so we're in a bind for a while. And yes, I know that legally you don't have to service the car at the official deale…

> If you bought a brand new car, the loss of warranty is not worth not bringing it to the dealer.

In the US, Magnonson-Moss prevents denial of warranty service unless the denier can prove that the damage being repaired under warranty was caused by "third party" work done on the thing being brought in for service.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#87

Post by bluGill »

junaru wrote: post #35

Can someone point me in the right direction on how cars submit the telemetry in the first place? Clearly some cellular technology is in use but this would require an eSIM or something from your local carrier. Do modern cars have "free internet" baked into them somehow that lets them upload this data? Whats the technology/protocol called ? How does it work in foreign countries with different carriers.

Cell internet, same as your phone. The car manufactures get a bulk deal with the cell companies for data which means their cost is much less than yours. They are likely to have some sort of kick us off when busy (for non-emergency) deal in place - the data can be up loaded tommorow or use last weeks maps. They will get a separate deal with some carrier in every country instead of roaming.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#88

Post by Lio »

Earw0rm wrote: post #64
epolanski wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2) is ridiculous speculation and fearmongering. Why shouldn't I feel the same about Tesla's or any other car? I don't care how much media tries to brainwash us that China is my enemy, facts are that there are way more tangible proofs of all us being consistently spied by US-led agencies, we have proof that from dams to electrical grids the US has one button methods to create chaos in most of the world, and yet, peopl…

Because Tesla isn't owned and controlled by a foreign government and military rival. (OK, Elon is a little too cosy with Putin for my liking, but not to that extent). I think it's reasonable to be sceptical about whether a state that brings us disposable vapes, TikTok and throwaway fast fashion has our best interests at heart.

Isn’t Musk an unelected part of the US government now?

He’s also talking about interfering in my country by giving huge sums of money to a wacky Spode-a-like conman that’s already taken billions out of our economy.

To my mind we should be skeptical of all foreign interference no matter where it comes from.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#89

Post by Lio »

f1shy wrote: post #69
lnsru wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it’s the lack of everything in a partially state owned company. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act They don’t really think about competition. That’s an arena for power fights, empire building and incompetence on every level. Think about software and Cariad disaster. Cars were a byproduct. Germans associated them for generations with good life and bought without thinking. I would say,…

I just keep hearing the same point of inflection, about golf 5. Then there was a big decline, not only VW, but all the others also. What happened?!

Not sure about “golf 5” but I have a Mk.7 Golf from 2014 and it’s an amazing car.

There’s no telemetry left in it (3G was turned iff years ago).

It has all the safety features.

It regularly gets 60 something MPG (Imperial).

The Adaptive Cruise Control is all the self driving I need.

It’s great.

Re: VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

#90

Post by tessierashpool9 »

Etheryte wrote: post #8

Germany makes a big ruckus about their local industry struggling to compete with Chinese manufacturers, but meanwhile the Volkswagen Group stumbles from one scandal to the next. As far as I'm concerned, if that's the way you do business, go bankrupt. I know all big manufacturers have their warts and flaws, but VW continues to be the frontrunner year after year.

as a person working in consulting for a few years now, i have to say - i am not surprised. at all. neither the negligence wrt to data protection laws as well as regarding it security. it's all just a big show with fancy charts showing how smart a solution will be. in the end nowadays it is often implemented by folks who barely speak an intelligible version of english (and certainly not german). i probably wouldn't be as frustrated about this if i was at least among the chosen ones benefiting financially of this bloated nonsense.
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