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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#81

Post by jajko »

techpression wrote: post #45
izacus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you arguing exactly? This isn't punishment or fine, this is paying what they should have all along.

The target of the case is wrong, it should be Ireland, not Apple. Many companies have unique (to them) tax benefits across the entire EU, some hidden under things like “electricity subsidies”. If the company pay what the country mandates, then the rest should be between the country and the EU, not the EU and the company.

They are setting up an example for other companies doing same. Fuck with EU taxes, we will fuck you up (and lets be honest here, 13 billions absolutely nothing for Apple given 500+ million wealthy market they cater to).

Law often does that to perpetrators. Ireland tried to save the shady deal by refusing the money it should have received (corruption in plain sight, with these sums its not unexpected it goes to highest places plus something about saving nation's public face), so this is how they got about it.

Not sure its 100% best process but overall a very good move and precedent for future.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#82

Post by mpweiher »

robertlagrant wrote: post #61
Y-bar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which secret sweetheart deals does Luxembourg have? The secrecy and exclusivity were central to the judgement. The EU requires a level playing field for all companies, which is why individual governments striking secret tax deals not available to all companies are seen as an illegal thing. I bet if Ireland had opened the same tax deal they did to Apple, to all companies this would not even have been a matter for the…

Isn't the EU specifically set up to allow competition between states on tax grounds?

No.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#83

Post by noname120 »

tmtvl wrote: post #73
izacus wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The target for this case is Ireland. They lost the case and now need to fix what they charged wrongly. Again, what are you arguing about?

The argument is that because Ireland needs to recover money from Apple, Apple is going to have to pay that money, hence Apple is getting punished.

They are not getting punished, as far as I know no fine whatsoever is required against them.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#84

Post by simongray »

linotype wrote: post #47
ko27 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can just ignore deals because you (EU) said so? Of course you can, because EU law has precedence over Ireland's deal in this situation.

Even if it was legal under the EU at the time? Maybe Ex Post Facto only applies in the US.

It wasn't legal at the time, that's what's just been established by the verdict.

Apple (uniquely) having a near zero tax rate is considered illegal state aid to a company. Private companies are supposed to operate on the same terms within each European country.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#86

Post by mpweiher »

linotype wrote: post #47
ko27 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can just ignore deals because you (EU) said so? Of course you can, because EU law has precedence over Ireland's deal in this situation.

Even if it was legal under the EU at the time? Maybe Ex Post Facto only applies in the US.

It wasn't.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#87

Post by Hamuko »

csomar wrote: post #31
InsomniacL wrote: post #2

Seems wrong that Ireland cheated the system to attract tech companies then also gets a huge payout.

The idea was that these big companies will move back to the big centers (Paris/Frankfurt) once they have to pay the same taxes. That didn't happen (surprise) and Ireland is now ending up with a tax deluge and high value tech companies.

Ireland has a pretty big advantage for getting big American companies to settle there since it's the only place in EU where English is the official language.

Well, technically Malta also exists, but I imagine that not a lot of companies are looking to set up on a small island the size of Kansas City.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#88

Post by Rinzler89 »

InsomniacL wrote: post #58

Somehow Ireland gets a 13 billion euro payday for illegally subsidising Apple so they do business in Ireland.

The issue isn't with Ireland per se, as if Ireland wouldn't do it, then Netherlands, Luxembourg, Cyprus, Bulgaria or someone else will gladly take Apple's 13 billion at the expense of the other members of union.

The right fix would be EU wide legislation to prevent EU member states of fighting against each other on who can screw over the taxpayers by providing the biggest tax breaks in exchange for corporations' bread crumbs in a race to the bottom, as this causes all EU taxpayers to loose and corporations to win, and then we wonder why we have no money for education, healthcare and infrastructure. Well of course we don't if you help big companies avoid paying tax and then your state budget relies only collecting tax from citizens and small business who can't dodge taxes.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#89

Post by jajko »

mutatio wrote: post #76
nsajko wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland giving special benefits to a private company like Apple conflicts with the principles of a free and fair market.

Because tax incentives do not exist in the EU, like the German car industry.

Of course it does. Now why EU should finance foreign company trying to circumvent local taxes like some chinese sweatshops vs local massive company that gives work to hundreds of thousands local people?

US does exactly the same, also in car manufacturing. This is normal market behavior, countries protect their companies. Apple has nothing substantial in EU, completely foreign force milking the market and paying nothing in taxes. Now if they opened big factories and research centers, they would be treated very differently but they prefer Foxconn or other chinese companies.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#90

Post by surgical_fire »

Etheryte wrote: post #8
Nursie wrote: post #4

Good. Not because I particularly dilike Apple or big US tech firms (I have a whole bunch of Apple stuff right here), but because Ireland has been able to undermine the tax regime of the whole EU, by giving these sweetheart tax deals to big firms, who can then run their entire EU business from there. This gives an unfair tax advantage to the multinationals over homegrown EU companies, skewing the market. Is it Apple's…

Yeah, agreed, Apple is simply doing what any corporation does, trying to do business as profitably as possible. The only tar bucket you should be having handy is for Ireland for trying to screw over the whole rest of EU.

Yes, every company will engage in tax avoidance if they think they can get away with it.

Good that Apple was punished for it. It should happen more often.

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