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Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

theguardian.com

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Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#81

Post by sofixa »

aabhay wrote: post #52
TacticalCoder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's also amazing is how well everything is working. They're are on time and stop at the exact right spot: the doors do open precisely where they're meant to.

To be honest I’m more surprised that this isn’t just how things are everywhere.

It is for every large scale modern or modernised line.

Copenhagen metro, Elizabeth line, all Paris metro lines (maybe without the 3bis, 10, 7 bis lines), Madrid metro, etc etc. Hell, all VAL-based metros like Lille, Rennes, Toulouse also have those characteristics because they're fully automated even if they're light metro for smaller cities.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#82

Post by sofixa »

SECProto wrote: post #55
sofixa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than…

> You can't get better than 60-90s frequency per direction on a classic fully automated dual track line. Note that this is 40-60 trains per hour, and each Yamanote train holds 1724 people, giving a capacity of 69,000-100,000 passengers per hour per direction A highway lane operating at peak capacity can carry fewer than 2000 vehicles per hour. If each vehicle held typical passenger loading of 2 passengers (average oc…

Oh of course, it's not even in the same league with extremely wasteful highways.

My point was just that tracks have limits too and at some point you need to add more of them / add more train cars / add new lines.

This can be seen in Paris where RER A was built in part to decongest line 1, which then resulted in both being heavily congested (RER A is one the most heavily used commuter rail line in Europe and the whole world). This led to the creation of line 14 to decongest the A and 1 inside of Paris, but it got congested too, so now there's also the RER E to decongest the 1, 14, A and B by taking over some trips between destinations that would have required doing a change 14+A or B+A.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#83

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

maxglute wrote: post #72
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

>Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. Sometimes I wonder if society will figure out a way to stagger business hours and holidays... somehow... to decongest rush hour. Something like X areacode business hours have to +/- 1 hour every other month.

The Netherlands has staggered school holidays: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/schoolvakanties/ove... (in Dutch, but you should be able to understand the table if you know English)

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#84

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

SECProto wrote: post #55
sofixa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than…

> You can't get better than 60-90s frequency per direction on a classic fully automated dual track line. Note that this is 40-60 trains per hour, and each Yamanote train holds 1724 people, giving a capacity of 69,000-100,000 passengers per hour per direction A highway lane operating at peak capacity can carry fewer than 2000 vehicles per hour. If each vehicle held typical passenger loading of 2 passengers (average oc…

Wow, I knew the difference was big, but not that big.

This made me think, how does this all compare to bikes? I found one study [1] which finds ~6500 bikes per hour for a 2m wide cycling path. That's actually much closer to a highway lane than I expected.

[1] https://fietsberaad.nl/CROWFietsberaad/media/Kennis/Bestande...

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#85

Post by [deleted] »

sofixa wrote: post #6
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than…

[deleted]

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#86

Post by ddfs123 »

golergka wrote: post #43
darknavi wrote: post #2

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and t…

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Do you honestly think that standing in a crowd with other people's smell all over you is better than being in your personal space, with music and AC turned to your taste, alone, sitting in a comfortable place that you adjusted for yourself? You must be the kind of person who thinks bland rice and unseasoned chicken breasts ar…

The best music is often discovered while a train, or a night bus at 2AM, with a sub-par quality headphone ;)

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#87

Post by ddfs123 »

aabhay wrote: post #53

I lived in Tokyo and literally didn’t know that the Yamanote line was so old, thanks HN! It runs so well, so much quieter than e.g. the BART. Insane that the loop was fully connected by the 1920s. If you do a bike/walk along the Yamanote, you’ll see TONS of small restaurants and grottos tucked in the spaces between the train tracks and the ground, for miles and miles. They have a great, cozy vibe, and are highly traf…

It's a Ship of Theseus thing since JR continuously upgrade their stations / stock. I would argue that Tokyo Metro show it's age more. Despite the dirtiness of London's Tube, I think it shows a bit more character in this aspect.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#88

Post by pjc50 »

mym1990 wrote: post #51
shiroiushi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real alternative: you either stare at people's shoes, or the ceiling, or you stare at your phone. The trains are crowded so it's basically impossible (during those times of the day) to look anywhere else, and staring at people is rude. Looking out the window isn't practical either: the seats are facing inwards, and there's people on the other side blocking the opposite window.

I'm sure there are alternatives since mass transit has been around since before phones. The belief that the only option is to stare at a screen is a little bit depressing actually. I am not saying I do not do similar things, what struck me was that most people did not seem to have any awareness of what was going on around them. I would observe people on the train and not once did anyone look up. I guess the world out…

Not observing people is intentional.

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#89

Post by OfficeChad »

bowsamic wrote: post #76
golergka wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Do you honestly think that standing in a crowd with other people's smell all over you is better than being in your personal space, with music and AC turned to your taste, alone, sitting in a comfortable place that you adjusted for yourself? You must be the kind of person who thinks bland rice and unseasoned chicken breasts ar…

I really don’t see the connection between preferring public transport and preferring to eat unseasoned food. The latter isn’t even much cheaper than seasoned food. Also chicken breast is very expensive, maybe you should have said veganism or something

[dead]

Re: Tokyo's oldest train line – in pictures

#90

Post by numpad0 »

theluketaylor wrote: post #35
lmm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nearly all metros with capacity issues have old, slow sections that limit the entire network (NYC looking at you) or have paused on expanding the network for generations (NYC looking at you again, 2nd ave subway notwithstanding). You're posting this on an article about a line that runs at 158% occupancy during peak times, in a city that certainly hasn't shirked on modernisation or expansion. If you expand far enoug…

Under JR's definitions 150% capacity means people have enough space to read a newspaper. It's 200%+ that is the image of Japanese people being pushed onto the train by the white gloved staff.

neither agreeing nor disagreeing - there's actually a design passenger count for train cars like any vehicles, rarely mentioned, and percent capacity is relative to that number.
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