Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#81

Post by tjoff » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:34 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #69

tjoff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

All of the devices you mentioned -- Android device, PS3, and router -- are all computers. They are general purpose machines that are programmed for a certain set of tasks. The kinds of devices you mention can all be reprogrammed and are actively reprogrammed by people, sometimes for a similar purpose that they already performed and sometimes for completely different purposes. Just because I buy a device from Manufact…

I agree on everything you say.

But that doesn't mean that the manufacturer have to play ball and make it easy for you.

Also, when we as consumers chose the iPhone we at the same said that we don't care the slightest about being able to do what we want with our devices, from a hacker perspective the future isn't looking bright and that is our fault since we buy crap.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#82

Post by nitrogen » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #40

nitrogen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

"Android device" isn't a physical thing. It's an idea, a particular (but not the only) application of a set of physical things. Physical things include CPUs, RAM, PCBs, displays, etc. The whole is exactly the sum of its parts.

Let's see what's in a computer: CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. What's in a smartphone? CPU, RAM, storage, input, output, software. Absent manufacturer lockdown or inane laws like the DMCA saying otherwise, they are literally, physically the same things in a different package.

Finally, what does it take for a thing to run Linux? 32-bit CPU, MMU, RAM, storage, input, output. A PS3, a phone, a router, a TiVo -- they all have all those things, and all of them can run Linux. They are all computers.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#83

Post by recoiledsnake » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:37 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #35

brudgers wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about ARM devices, not x86.

Apple makes their own devices. Microsoft is forcing OEMs who would allow dual booting to restrict user choice because they'd rather not compete.

So, if Microsoft bought up Nokia or HTC and made their own Windows RT tablets, people will be better off with no hardware choice like with iOS and there would be no complaining here?

If a company wants to enhance competition between its hardware partners and a hardware choice to the public, they should be forced to not license it on their own terms?

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#84

Post by cube13 » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:38 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #34

polshaw wrote: post #3

Along with their apparent restriction of the 'desktop' on arm, this is the reason I lost interest in windows8 on arm. So far a linux + android solution (like ubuntu have demonstrated) seems more powerful and very will also have more apps to start (way to go throw away windows' advantage #1). It seems quite short-sighted, too, as I see ARM as being a viable laptop platform in the life of windows 8, but MS are restrict…

Windows already had no advantage - all programs would need to be rebuilt for the new platform. That's what killed Windows NT on everything non-x86. The only apps that will be cross-platform will be WinRT/Metro based ones.

>The only apps that will be cross-platform will be WinRT/Metro based ones.

Is this true? The code is cross-platform, but I was under the impression that the executable was not. You still need to compile the app for both X86 and ARM.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#85

Post by recoiledsnake » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:40 PM UTC

liquidsnake wrote: post #11

tjoff wrote: post #9

We've yet to see any mobile device where running another OS than the bundled one have been anything but a nightmare. This is done everywhere, android manufacturers constantly try to lock users in their own android shell, not to mention apple. These devices are not multipurpose devices, they are built for a specific purpose and tailormade for that and nothing else. It is not in any sense equivalent to desktop/laptop-c…

Exception: HP Touchpad. ICS runs great on it.

That is because WebOS was running a Linux kernel and the hardware was similar to a HTC phone(Sensation?).

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#86

Post by jerf » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #40

nitrogen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

Along with the other capable technical takedowns of your argument, might I just add that this is the road to technical serfdom. This is not something to be relaxed into, but to be vigorously fought.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#87

Post by tjoff » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #55

tjoff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer. I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you…

Your router probably is running Linux already. Most commodity routers do.

You guys are completely missing my point. Even though my router might be an arm-computer that runs linux - I can't even run linux on the damn thing (that binary blob that is shipped with the router could be any OS for I care, it's not as if my experience will be any better or worse if runs linux or DOS when everything is locked down and all I get access to is a simple webserver with an administrative page on)... Just as I can't run any other form of linux than android on my phone.

Yes, there are a lot of exceptions - routers that you can install alternative OS's on, I've installed OpenWRT and DD-WRT myself. But that's beside the point. Just because linux run on arm and my router has a arm cpu doesn't mean I can run linux on it.

I bought a router and I got a router. Then I installed something else on it and I could just as well have been using it to control the curtains in my bedroom instead - and I have every right to do that. Just as the manufacturer has the right to secure their product and in effect lock me out of that ability.

Now, if I had bought a computer that would be in a completely different ball game. But now I bought a router and the manufacturer of that router has no obligation not trying make my life a living hell for even attempting to control my curtains with it.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#88

Post by slowpoke » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

keeperofdakeys wrote: post #23

exDM69 wrote: post #6

I assume Microsoft will want to have secure booting devices that ship with Windows, because Hollywood and other content producers require a secure OS so their DRM is safer. If they would allow non-secure boot, it might be difficult or impossible to get video and music content licensed from the major producers on the platform.

It should be noted Secure Boot is not a DRM device in itself, it merely allows you to enforce a chain of trust for an OS to boot. The OS still needs to provide DRM functions itself.

Secure Boot (on ARM) restricts my ability to run whatever the fuck I want on my device. I do not see how this is not Digital Restrictions Mismanagement.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#89

Post by mhurron » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #53

protomyth wrote: post #52

I really don't care about the restrictions on tablets. I figure every OS will have a tablet or two available. What really bothers me is that ARM-based laptops come under this crud. I have really wanted a modern day replacement for the Psion. Something that gets great battery life and has a decent keyboard. I also want to run a BSD (probably Open), so that is really going to make it a pain.

What's the difference between tablets and laptops? I don't see any differences when it comes to the ability to dual boot. The ASUS Transformer line has been around for a while now, showing that the line between tablet and laptop is blurring. Also, Canonical/Ubuntu seems to be gunning for tablet market share in the future. Do you think they'll have their own hardware? I don't see any reason to separate out tablets and…

> What's the difference between tablets and laptops?

Usage patterns. A laptop is just a mobile general purpose computer, to restrict it by restricting say it's OS, you have removed the general purpose nature of the device and this is a loss of functionality.

A tablet on the other hand is an appliance. It has more in common with your toaster, microwave, refrigerator or your DVD player. It is intended to basically do one thing and hopefully do it well. Just like no one really complains that you can't toast bread with a refrigerator, having a tablet sort of locked to one OS isn't exactly that strange of a proposal.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#90

Post by derrida » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #66

The quotations say nothing of the sort. A vendor could provide a dual-boot device providing they have an Android bootloader signed with Microsoft's signing key, which is a service that Microsoft will be providing. A more open question is whether any of the existing Linux vendors will be doing this. Fedora is willing to use Microsoft's signing service for x86 because users will be able to disable the feature or enrol…

"...a service that Microsoft will be providing." It's now a 'service' to unlock the 'universal' in the 'universal Turing Machine' in my hand?!