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Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

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Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#81

Post by bni »

kj99 wrote: post #16
bni wrote: post #9

Chat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.

This - they should just mandate RCS, or maybe actually invest in developing a modern European standard and then mandate that. It’s not like they don’t have research universities with CS departments who could be part of a standards body. I don’t mean they should limit alternatives - just that they should require a modern, E2EE standard on all phones, and then we can all just shut up about this.

No please don't mandate a specific protocol (that probably suck!) instead require the successful/important protocol tho become interoperable.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#82

Post by sircastor »

bni wrote: post #80
lxgr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately the EU is mandating both! > Many app stores is actually a negative for me Just don't use them, then! They're not mandatory for consumers.

Until the app I really want require me to install their own crapware store/launcher. Or even worse, that utility apps that are needed in daily life require their own "store"

While I don't think we'll see Meta do this for their apps, I do expect (if they can stomach the cost) Epic and Valve to build their own stores.

Epic didn't have much success getting Android users to sideload Fortnite, so I don't know how well it will go for either, but I know that gamers are a dedicated bunch and both Valve and Epic want to have the user-level connection.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#83

Post by sircastor »

no_wizard wrote: post #2

I wonder if this will lead to a reversal on supporting RCS, as I feel it was motivated to keep regulators at bay and now that iMessage is found to be exempt I don’t know if Apple has any incentive to follow through

They're still trying to hold off regulation in the rest of the world, and the DMA only applies to European Union markets.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#84

Post by danaris »

lxgr wrote: post #76
troupo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why the the iPhone is still a status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU wat? iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android (and has for some time), and since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment, it hasn't been a status symbol for a decade or more.

> since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment This is not (anymore) how people buy their phones in many countries. Even on relatively expensive post-paid plans in some European countries, you don't get a discounted phone anymore: All they offer is an interest-free installment plan. > iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android What's an equivalent iPhone to e.g. a Galaxy A54 (…

I think you may have misunderstood the GP.

Apple offers the ability to buy the iPhone with $0 down over (IIRC) 24 months—making that iPhone SE cost ~$21/month.

It has nothing to do with the contract discounts that phone providers used to offer.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#85

Post by danaris »

sircastor wrote: post #82
bni wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until the app I really want require me to install their own crapware store/launcher. Or even worse, that utility apps that are needed in daily life require their own "store"

While I don't think we'll see Meta do this for their apps, I do expect (if they can stomach the cost) Epic and Valve to build their own stores. Epic didn't have much success getting Android users to sideload Fortnite, so I don't know how well it will go for either, but I know that gamers are a dedicated bunch and both Valve and Epic want to have the user-level connection.

From what I've seen, one of the requirements of a competing App Marketplace on iOS is that they allow any developer to submit apps to them—I'm unclear on whether they can restrict by category (eg, only allow games), but AIUI they can't just restrict their own marketplace to selling the apps they themselves publish.

This is a very interesting requirement, and will definitely at least make companies like Epic, Valve, and Facebook pause and think before deciding whether they actually want to be running an App Marketplace.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#86

Post by dbbk »

kj99 wrote: post #16
bni wrote: post #9

Chat protocols being standardized would be way more useful for me as a user than having "alternate app stores". Many app stores is actually a negative for me, going by my experience from Windows gaming.

This - they should just mandate RCS, or maybe actually invest in developing a modern European standard and then mandate that. It’s not like they don’t have research universities with CS departments who could be part of a standards body. I don’t mean they should limit alternatives - just that they should require a modern, E2EE standard on all phones, and then we can all just shut up about this.

It won't be mandated but iOS is getting RCS so we can all move on

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#87

Post by troupo »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #70
troupo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that doesn't make them "status phones for middle class people". The latest iPhone 15 can be had for 30 EUR/month even in Sweden (Sweden is very expensive) [1]. That's a single lunch for two. [1] https://www.tre.se/handla/mobiltelefoner/apple/iphone-15

Sweden also has some of the highest salaries in Europe/the world, that's why they're not a status symbol, because even a pizza delivery boy can afford an iPhone 15 Pro Max. But they very much are a status symbol in less developed countries with lower wages: Eastern Europe, Latin America, etc. Lower and middle class people there will save for over a year just to get the latest iPhone, which is why there's a huge marke…

The original claim was about "the EU" as a whole. Now it's "less developed countries with lowest wages".

Even in Eastern Europe it's much less of a status symbol than let's say 10 years ago: installment plans are much more affordable to a larger part of the population. Source: am from Eastern Europe (though I live in Sweden now).

> Lower and middle class people there will save for over a year just to get the latest iPhone

Yup, because the poor unwashed masses don't have discounts, instalment plans or phones included with subscriptions. Oh wait, they do.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#88

Post by troupo »

lxgr wrote: post #76
troupo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why the the iPhone is still a status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU wat? iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android (and has for some time), and since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment, it hasn't been a status symbol for a decade or more.

> since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment This is not (anymore) how people buy their phones in many countries. Even on relatively expensive post-paid plans in some European countries, you don't get a discounted phone anymore: All they offer is an interest-free installment plan. > iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android What's an equivalent iPhone to e.g. a Galaxy A54 (…

> All they offer is an interest-free installment plan.

Which even in Sweden (one of the most expensive countries in Europe) is often as low as a lunch for two: https://www.tre.se/handla/mobiltelefoner/apple/iphone-15

> What's an equivalent iPhone to e.g. a Galaxy A54 (~1 year old, EUR ~300-350)?

There might not be, which doesn't make iPhone a "status symbol among the middle class and richest people in the EU". It's literally just a phone.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#89

Post by lxgr »

danaris wrote: post #84
lxgr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since you can get it with your phone subscription for a rather low monthly payment This is not (anymore) how people buy their phones in many countries. Even on relatively expensive post-paid plans in some European countries, you don't get a discounted phone anymore: All they offer is an interest-free installment plan. > iPhone costs as much as an equivalent Android What's an equivalent iPhone to e.g. a Galaxy A54 (…

I think you may have misunderstood the GP. Apple offers the ability to buy the iPhone with $0 down over (IIRC) 24 months—making that iPhone SE cost ~$21/month. It has nothing to do with the contract discounts that phone providers used to offer.

> It has nothing to do with the contract discounts that phone providers used to offer.

It has a lot to do with that. Many US providers offer significant discounts on iPhones when buying them on a (new or renewed) contract. This was a very commonplace thing in Europe as well, but I believe it's become less common.

Installment payments change nothing about the base price.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#90

Post by danaris »

lxgr wrote: post #89
danaris wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have misunderstood the GP. Apple offers the ability to buy the iPhone with $0 down over (IIRC) 24 months—making that iPhone SE cost ~$21/month. It has nothing to do with the contract discounts that phone providers used to offer.

> It has nothing to do with the contract discounts that phone providers used to offer. It has a lot to do with that. Many US providers offer significant discounts on iPhones when buying them on a (new or renewed) contract. This was a very commonplace thing in Europe as well, but I believe it's become less common. Installment payments change nothing about the base price.

No, that's true; they don't.

But they still make it much more accessible to buy an iPhone for someone who doesn't have €500 or $1000 or whatever at one time to comfortably spend on one.

The idea that iPhones could be a meaningful "status symbol" by this point in their lifetime, given all the ways one can obtain one cheaply if that is what one wants, and the percentage of people who own them, just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's a meme repeated by people who need some reason to believe that people don't buy Apple's products on their own merits—much like the idea that it's a "cult".

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