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Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

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Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#81

Post by pcurve »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12
nielsbot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like the first time there would be serious impetus (and a perfect case) for tech workers to form a union.

Indeed. It’s a power struggle and tech workers might as well fire back if being threatened with dismissal. Wind is at their backs. Otherwise the deal will always change and the screws turned tighter, forever the boiled frog. https://prospect.org/labor/2023-08-28-bidens-nlrb-brings-wor... https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/board-issues-d...

I love the idea. I wonder how the mgmt will react short and long term. My guess is there will be even more aggressive attempt to develop engineering center outside the US. (Vs outsourcing to ibm or offshore consulting.) This was already happening.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#82

Post by ghaff »

rhaway84773 wrote: post #41
hinkley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you persist in disagreeing with an idea if you did not see real world consequences for the wrong solution in your future? If you're dealing with obstructionist people, surely there are other ways to detect and address it than 'disagree and commit'.

Or maybe it’s not obstructionist people and you just have a difference in opinion. Or you might be wrong. Or you’re the obstructionist person. That’s the whole point of disagree and commit. Most decisions are not clear cut obvious decisions, otherwise it’s unlikely there would be disagreements about them. Disagree and commit allows everyone to contribute to their max capacity and move forward once deadlock has been r…

At some point, your objections are noted and we're just going to move on and it's not useful to anyone if you continue to complain about the decision at every opportunity. I've been on both sides of that fence. At some point, you buy in or move on--whatever that means.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#83

Post by RNCTX »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

1. No, generally speaking corporate management in the 21st century does not make decisions based on effectiveness of their product or their workforce. They make decisions based on finance centered around the upcoming year or quarter. Tesla isn't interested in making good cars. Tesla is interested in selling tax credits. Period.

2. Even if #1 isn't true in an edge case, don't care.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#84

Post by jitl »

grepfru_it wrote: post #11
riscy wrote: post #7

> In July, leaked messages seen by Insider suggested that Amazon would force a “voluntary resignation” on employees [...] Is Amazon trying to avoid firing people to screw them out of unemployment benefits? No way a forced resignation is not the same as firing.

Nobody wants to say they got fired from Amazon. If the writing is on the wall, a silent majority will jump ship.

Why would you tell anyone you got fired? Even if it happens you don’t have to. That’s between you, your ex employer, and the unemployment office.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#86

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jaktet wrote: post #69
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

I think it will be difficult to find supporting data that mandates all employees across every team are required to be in office 3 days a week. Given the related news about downtown areas where the offices are facing issues with lack of consumer foot traffic and increased issues with crime and social issues, it’s seems more likely at this time the decision is being made because of pressure from local governments. http…

Amazon and the Seattle city council don’t have a great relationship, so I doubt they are doing this with pressure from the local government.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#87

Post by rented_mule »

jhot wrote: post #85

I have a friend who has worked remotely for Amazon for a few years. He now has to ride a bus to the nearest office (1.5 hours away), meanwhile the rest of the teammated are at different offices. What a waste.

A friend of mine and her manager have been remote for their entire tenure of 7 years at Amazon. They live in the same city and often work together in person. The rest of the team has also always been remote, but they don't live in the same city. They are all being told to move to Seattle (1,500+ miles for my friend) or resign. Another company will be very lucky to get my friend as a new employee.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#88

Post by gnicholas »

oldoracle wrote: post #72
unforeseen9991 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much real estate Oracle owns compared to the others?

US list is online: https://www.oracle.com/corporate/contact/field-offices.html I never went to one of their offices. Probably boring office park vibes. Unlike the space donut and amusement parks it sounds like Apple and Google workers require to crank leetcode

Offices are ok, but nothing like FAANG (I've never been to Netflix's hq, but am guessing). Cafeteria food wasn't free either, though was pretty cheap.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#89

Post by vagab0nd »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #8

I don't know the origins of the "disagree and commit" philosophy, but Jassy's use seems like a self-serving perversion of what is an attempt at dealing with decision deadlock. ... that is, disagree-and-commit transactionally seems like it ought to be between peers. Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just "shut up and follow orders."

The Amazon LPs has to be the most blatant corporate brain-washing tool ever invented. Put aside the contradicting nature between the LPs themselves, they are almost exclusively used for the benefit of the company and at the expense of the employees.

It's also served as a hiring filter, and probably a very good one at that.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#90

Post by Shekelphile »

SoftTalker wrote: post #71
Shekelphile wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I'd wager that most people are just as productive or more productive when WFH, but there will always be unethical people who will abuse the privilege when given the chance. There are tons of anecdotes of people just being straight up lazy, defeating naive monitoring solutions with mo…

I'd take the other side of that wager. I think most people who can WFH are doing as little as possible.

If you want to go down this route I would argue that no office worker is ever very productive relative to what a blue collar employee deals with every day. You won't make them work harder by dragging them into the office, it will simply burn them out faster (1-2 hours more per day devoted to commute and cooloff from work once getting home) and employees forced into office will just steal time by taking long bathroom breaks/long lunch/sitting around chatting with buddies.
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