Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 403 posts

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#51

Post by dekhn »

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #8

I don't know the origins of the "disagree and commit" philosophy, but Jassy's use seems like a self-serving perversion of what is an attempt at dealing with decision deadlock. ... that is, disagree-and-commit transactionally seems like it ought to be between peers. Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just "shut up and follow orders."

I don't do disagree and commit. If I disagree and get asked to commit to something I don't agree with, I start my search for a new role immediately.

This has been an option throughout my career, and I think many people simply don't have that option, especially early in their career.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#52

Post by Shekelphile »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

> Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money?

I'd wager that most people are just as productive or more productive when WFH, but there will always be unethical people who will abuse the privilege when given the chance. There are tons of anecdotes of people just being straight up lazy, defeating naive monitoring solutions with mouse jigglers etc, or committing fraud by working multiple full time jobs concurrently.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#53

Post by hinkley »

reilly3000 wrote: post #30
hinkley wrote: post #5

> Jassy reportedly said his decision to have employees return to the office was a “judgment call” and that employees can leave if they don’t want to comply. Amazon is having trouble scouting warehouse labor. Looks like they're trying to add skilled labor to the set of problems.

I think it already is. Their culture issues have made attracting fresh talent hard more expensive. I think this direction will haunt them, especially as they find themselves in 4th place at best in AI spend, which is likely the biggest incremental IT budget driver in this decade. It’s the wrong time to scare off good talent with bad edicts. You would have to at least double my salary for me to consider working at Ama…

I used to joke that for me to take a high stress position (at current employer, or a different one) they'd have to budget in a full time masseuse to work the kinks out of my shoulders. Possibly as I'm actively typing.

An assistant wouldn't be amiss either.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#54

Post by badlucklottery »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #29

Isn’t there anyone that can steelman the WFH situation? Twitter, Amazon, Zoom, others are all ending or limiting their WFH programs. Doesn’t that tell anyone that there MIGHT be facts or at least good research on this that it isn’t producing good work for the money? I get that “corporations are bad maaaan” and all the good people are dreamy socialists… but what if you are wrong and it isn’t more effective?

>it isn’t producing good work for the money?

They already have a mechanism for dealing with workers who don't produce up to standards: performance improvement plans (PIP).

The fact they aren't using the existing mechanism and instead are leaning on decree raises some suspicion about their motives.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#55

Post by grepfru_it »

gumballindie wrote: post #34
grepfru_it wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to say they got fired from Amazon. If the writing is on the wall, a silent majority will jump ship.

And go where in this market? Software development is saturated.

I disagree. Software dev is saturated at FAANG salaries, but dial your salary expectations back and there are tons of dev shops still hiring.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#56

Post by fnordpiglet »

grepfru_it wrote: post #11
riscy wrote: post #7

> In July, leaked messages seen by Insider suggested that Amazon would force a “voluntary resignation” on employees [...] Is Amazon trying to avoid firing people to screw them out of unemployment benefits? No way a forced resignation is not the same as firing.

Nobody wants to say they got fired from Amazon. If the writing is on the wall, a silent majority will jump ship.

No one has to say they got fired when they get fired. Many locales in fact prohibit employers from disclosing how you were terminated.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#57

Post by hinkley »

MattGaiser wrote: post #37
grepfru_it wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to say they got fired from Amazon. If the writing is on the wall, a silent majority will jump ship.

Given how Amazon treats people and is well known for grinding people into the ground, is there really a big stigma from getting fired from Amazon? Heck, the whole hire to fire thing gives a person excellent cover beyond that provided by return to the office.

Before the 2008 crash I already knew 2 different individuals who lasted 2 weeks at Amazon. The 3 month contract I did there was the longest 3 months of my adult life, and I now understand why Amazon employees have a bad reputation in Seattle for walking 3-4 abreast on the sidewalk and not noticing people coming the other way.

It's not arrogance, it's PTSD.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#58

Post by fnordpiglet »

bhickey wrote: post #10

He's going to get a very sudden lesson on adverse selection.

Amazon is a human mill. It grinds through people at a startling rate and they frequently lose good people for stupid reasons. They generally look at people as fungible cogs, and all the leveling, top grading, and OLR processes reflect that. I think they (rightly) think they can absorb any losses and replace them with people willing to relocate and come in.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#59

Post by hot_gril »

hinkley wrote: post #6
sokoloff wrote: post #2

#disagree-and-commute

I have yet to work at a place where 'disagree and commit' did not devolve into 'shut up and code'. It seems to be one of those things that looks good on paper and is rotten in practice.

I'm honestly fine with "shut up and code" at the appropriate times and wish more of my coworkers would do that.

Re: Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probably not going to work out

#60

Post by gumballindie »

grepfru_it wrote: post #55
gumballindie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And go where in this market? Software development is saturated.

I disagree. Software dev is saturated at FAANG salaries, but dial your salary expectations back and there are tons of dev shops still hiring.

Better find a job in a different industry where you can spend time with your family and keep your sanity then. Wage depression in tech makes it an unsustainable career choice.
Post reply on HN