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Who cares about the Ivy League?

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Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#81

Post by hnbad »

Auracle wrote: post #51
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

[flagged]

That article does not say what you seem to think it says. Heritability and IQ are both fairly complex topics and citing a single article out of context doesn't do the subject justice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

That said, your statement does not follow from your argument. The heritability of IQ is unrelated to whether people's potential is wasted by being denied access to a nepotistic college system. The school system is not a meritocracy either.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#82

Post by gottorf »

mschild wrote: post #28
soco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess if learning a trade could guarantee the kids a future (or at least make it look like guaranteed) I bet many people would go that way without any need for extra nudges. Picking up the trade of your parents was earlier a pretty fine plan in life. But today we are where we are and political influence seems like the only safe bet... "bet" because learning to gamble it is.

This is from a German perspective but learning a trade in Germany can be a ticket to good income and good life. There's unfortunately the perception that trades are worth less than academics in Germany from a societal standpoint. I suspect it's somewhat similar in the US. That's part of the reason why we have a massive shortage of any skilled tradesperson in Germany. If you're an electrician or plumber you can basica…

It's about the same in the US, where being in the trades isn't exactly widely and highly regarded, but it will get you a middle-class lifestyle. The difference is that for the most part it's a lot harder work than an office job with an equivalent pay; you don't get paid if you don't work, you will have to work in 120ºF attics in the middle of the summer, and it will leave a toll on your body after decades.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#83

Post by gochi »

Auracle wrote: post #51
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

[flagged]

It's not that clear of a correlation actually (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4557354/).

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#84

Post by gen220 »

alephnerd wrote: post #53
mrangle wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You already knew your friend group because you attended the same "2-300" high schools? Flagship Public Schools have long been limited elite. Hence the concept of the "Public Ivies". Ivy does STEM, but STEM isn't the point of going Ivy. Public Schools will continue to be fine institutions for technical workers, who were and will never considered to be elite in the class sense. Real elites tend toward history and art m…

> STEM isn't the point of going Ivy It is. Cornell, Princeton, and Columbia are all Top 10 CS programs. For natural sciences, all the Ivies top the charts. For med school, same story. > Real elites tend toward history and art majors. Some children of HNWI do major in history and art. Others will gladly major in STEM. Look at people like Bill Gates or half my hs. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore. Post-2008, top publi…

FWIW, the parts of those "elite industries" that STEM majors are hired into are more upper-middle class than you might believe, in terms of their capacity for the accrual of significant wealth/status. I'm not saying they're not well-paid or that they can't buy a house, but it's a cut below anything that might be called "ruling class".

If you study the backgrounds of capital allocators, a disproportionate percentage of the top ones had a combination of privileged backgrounds and technical educations, but the vast majority have privileged backgrounds and no technical educations.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#85

Post by yterdy »

ascar wrote: post #50
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

> Most Ivy League students weren't born smart. They're exceptional because they were given access to what they needed to succeed. The most ironic part here it isn't the school and education there that makes them exceptional. The schools filter so harshly that just getting admitted already means you are exceptional. And they can do that because of their good reputation, which is mostly based on tradition and perceptio…

Unless you're a legacy or a child of a donor or professor. (There are a lot of legacies and children of donors, somewhat fewer children of professors.)

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#86

Post by o_nate »

ericmay wrote: post #22
_fat_santa wrote: post #9

I can't speak for other industries but I know in tech, the college you went to is basically irrelevant 1-2 years into your career. Even if say you have someone that went to MIT and then went to work for Google, as a hiring manager I would want to know more about what they did at Google than at MIT. I can really only think of two professions where your school matters: law and medicine. With Law I think it's the most i…

> I would want to know more about what they did at Google than at MIT. Yes but for many the reason they were at Google was because of the MIT degree. So not only do you get a great education, but then you go on to do solid work (hopefully) and get good experience. It's acceleration on ROI of the degree.

Agree with this. Even if it only opens that first door, that's a pretty darned important door.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#87

Post by w0m »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #46
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

The long and short of it is that when it comes to education, the US needs equal opportunities. This means paid-for education and an equalization of education knowledge / lessons, and less emphasis (in hiring) on what schools you went to. A college or uni degree should carry the same weight wherever you study at. Personally, I've benefited from the Netherlands' older equal opportunity system; my parents weren't rich (…

> A college or uni degree should carry the same weight wherever you study at

A big issue here is that all degrees with the same title are not equal between universities. If nothing else; as long as MIT is more selective than Indiana University of Pennsylvania, you're going to have a a general average quality of graduate produced.

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#88

Post by uneekname »

rcme wrote: post #76
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

> I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented people" if they were wealthy, given access to near-limitless resources, accepted into an elite school. I think a lot of people, myself included, want to believe this. It's nice to think that all humans have great potential inside of them! Unfortunately, reality might not respect our perfectly reasonable sensibilities. After having a child, I began…

Well here's an easy* win for any new parents reading this: read to your kids. As much as you can. They will start school with a significant leg up!

https://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abstract/2019/06000/When_Ch...

* edit: easy, of course, if you don't work a night job and have the time to read multiple books to your child every day

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#89

Post by thebooktocome »

armitron wrote: post #48
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

> Most Ivy League students weren't born smart. This seems like a wild assertion to make, and here's something by Scott Alexander that points in the other direction: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/secrets-of-the-great-f...

None of the subsections in that essay do much more than “point”; in classic Scott Alexander fashion he makes a lot of noise and gestures at. . . something. . .

* Privilege

> “One obvious answer would be “privilege”. It’s not completely wrong; once the first talented individual makes a family rich and famous, it has a big leg up.”

But this answer isn’t politically viable for him so he glosses over it.

* Genetics

> “The other obvious answer is “genetics!” I think this one is right, but there are some mysteries here that make it less of a slam dunk.”

He spends a lot of time trying to make this one work but of course it has all the well-known problems that all the eugenicists of the past ran into (e.g., assortative mating doesn’t completely explain Ashkenazi Jews).

* Education

> “Overall I’m not sure I can find any commonalities in these families’ educational styles except that they were all pretty weird.”

* Yudkowsky’s “Hero License”

> “. . .which I have no evidence for.”

Re: Who cares about the Ivy League?

#90

Post by w0m »

ascar wrote: post #50
uneekname wrote: post #30

I think the point about college mobility rates was an interesting one. But then the author lost me a bit: > what is the economic rationale for having a bunch of educational resources and top students concentrated in a few small elite schools? ... the country’s most talented people into the country’s most important jobs I don't think that's it at all. I believe nearly anyone could be among "the country's most talented…

> Most Ivy League students weren't born smart. They're exceptional because they were given access to what they needed to succeed. The most ironic part here it isn't the school and education there that makes them exceptional. The schools filter so harshly that just getting admitted already means you are exceptional. And they can do that because of their good reputation, which is mostly based on tradition and perceptio…

> And they can do that because of their good reputation, which is mostly based on tradition and perception.

And possibly based somewhat on quality of education

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