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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#81

Post by phpisthebest »

brvsft wrote: post #14
JonChesterfield wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

Language is power. It is simply a power grab where people invent new language and initialisms intending to claim ownership and control of them and use them as a tool to, like you say, exclude people. DI became DEI became DEIB in less than a decade. They are working on new initials as we speak, to confuse and demoralize anyone who opposes this make-it-up-as-we-go-along sophistry. Inventing all of this language infrast…

[flagged]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#82

Post by jeffBM »

practice9 wrote: post #58
speeder wrote: post #35

I see a lot of people here forgetting a real case of CoC abuse. There was this famous Drupal dev that wrote a transcript of a fetish wedding on his fetish social media profile. An enemy of his on Drupal quoted that transcript and used it as examples the Dev should be punished. Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished,…

> Drupal, like GCC proposed rules, allow punishment of someone for something they did outside the community, and not only the guy was punished, an ex girlfriend of his was harassed by "helpful" people Oh wow. I was undecided about the helpfulness of CoC as sometimes people in the project can become hostile, unstable or passive-aggressive. But this case is very bad. Seems like CoC opens up ways for character assassina…

It is not something that automatically comes with a COC, they explicitly state it in theirs: "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them."

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#83

Post by asylteltine »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #6
not_your_vase wrote: post #2

Has there been any project which had its community change its conduct after adopting a CoC? Or any projects which had a profound impact due a CoC? I see that having CoC is getting standard with OSS projects, old and new alike. But have no idea if it actually does anything.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

[dead]

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#84

Post by torstenvl »

foldr wrote: post #53
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything this used to be much more common before the era of codes of conduct, when people were, for example, routinely fired when it was discovered that they were gay. Do we really want to go back to those times?

Your comment is a bit cryptic, but I assume you're trying to make an equivalence between, say, someone being fired for being gay in the 1970s and someone now being fired for saying hateful things about trans people. These scenarios are only comparable at a level of abstraction that's not useful. It's only inconsistent to oppose one thing and not the other if you think that employers should be barred from firing peopl…

How many people are fired for saying hateful things about trans people?

vs.

How many people are fired for saying things that many trans people disagree with?

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#85

Post by LexiMax »

roenxi wrote: post #51
JonChesterfield wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

In addition, open source projects are generally balancing on a knife-edge between irrelevance and obsolescence. Any bureaucratic tool that draws attention away from their core focus carries a risk of derailing them. The CoC people are relatively transparent that they want to be able to push people like Torvalds and Stallman out of projects. Raising the question; do we have a limitless supply of Stallmans and Torvalds…

> There is a long queue of people lining up to criticise him, but nobody has successfully cobbled together an alternative to the FSF.

This isn't true. I have actually seen several non-FSF/OSI attempts at licenses in the recent past, most notably License Zero with its Prosperity and Parity licenses, as well as alternative licenses like the Server Side Public License and Business Source License.

The trouble is that attempting to learn from the lessons of past licenses tends to draw a lot of dogmatic outrage because said licenses either don't conform to the open source definition or four freedoms - or at least, not in the opinion of the OSI or FSF.

If developers are unwilling to think outside those boxes en masse, then we are in effect "stuck" with the existing power structures. And that power structure is what led to things like the wide preference of permissive licenses and promoting and prioritizing the GPLv3 over the AGPLv3.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#86

Post by madmoose »

Dalewyn wrote: post #61
foldr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Say you're a car mechanic and you work at a car shop. The car shop fires you for saying the Moon is made of cheese during a BBQ at a friend's on Saturday, because it's against the nebulous code of conduct. Or maybe we’re slowly but surely moving to a world where the rights of women and minority groups are being slowly eroded after decades of progress, and before long me and all the other gays will be rounded up and…

I'm going to ask you this again because you seem to have reading comprehension problems: What part of having absolutely nothing to do with the company or its business do you not understand? This is framing "violations of this code outside [spaces managed by the GCC project]" in a context more relatable to common men.

Why do you feel the need to make up nonsense examples about moon-cheese to make the discussion relatable to "common men"?

Do "common men" not understand sensible examples or do you not have sensible examples?

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#88

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

I've come around to the idea that codes of conduct are generally sensible. In business we write contracts to explicitly state expectations, and it seems fair enough that socially we could be explicit about our values.

That said, it is true that there are malicious actors who weaponise codes of conduct.

I wonder if there's an equivalent to vexatious litigation in the CoC space. Perhaps there ought to be some means to punish CoC abuse, and to ensure that the accuser has some skin in the game.

Although, perhaps that has more serious ramifications also. I'm not sure. Seems like a hard problem.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#89

Post by LtWorf »

commitpizza wrote: post #30

I can't wait until the silent majority stops being silent and throws out CoC and their people from projects. It is seriously a toxic thing that creates debates over stuff where there is no need for it to be a debate to begin with.

But if you speak up you're a pedo… I wrote on a debian mailing list a while ago, when they wanted to sign against rms.

I didn't address all the accuses against him, just the one about being ableist, and how as a disabled person I don't think non-disabled people should decide just to push their agenda.

Anyway, I got some thanks in private, for speaking up, but nobody publicly replied.

the mail in question, if you care to read it: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2021/03/msg00142.html

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