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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#81

Post by rr842j »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #66
rr842j wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not taking the farms from them, they are buying them. Agro-industry in the Netherlands is unsustainable and all the parties involved know it. Whatever they say, what we're watching here is just the buyout negotiations.

Buying them, while preventing they start over elsewhere. And also, all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries. That doesn’t sound fair, and isn’t.

First of all your claim that all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries needs a reference, but even if this claim were true, one could easily argue that more people on the Netherlands would benefit (for example) from affordable housing, than from exporting powdered milk or greenhouse tomatoes

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#82

Post by guilhas »

masklinn wrote: post #28
digitalengineer wrote: post #24

The datacenters are mostly air cooled but also use massive amounts of water when it gets warmer. Exactly during the times that f the year when citizens and farmers are called upon to use less water. How much? Independent studies showed up to 4 times more then Microsoft claimed. Furthermore the water they put back in the local lakes contains some unknown kind of chemical. So yeah I get why locals and farmers might be…

The farmers are mostly giant moaning hypocrites. They’re the cause of the nitrogen crisis.

Nitrogen fertilizers were produced with gas from Russia, now in shortage, the new environmental rules are just a guise

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#83

Post by surgical_fire »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #15
Animats wrote: post #3

Terrible article. "Nitrogen, produced by cars, agriculture, and heavy machinery used in construction, can be a dangerous pollutant, damaging ecosystems and endangering people's health." Huh? Nitrogen? But since 2015, the country has also witnessed the arrival of enormous “hyperscalers,” buildings that generally span at least 10,000 square feet". They may have obtained that definition from here.[1] That's not a big da…

I have lived in zeewolde near the place of the datacenter, I can tell you that its massive, especially considering how small the country is and how densely populated it is. Historically, flevoland was created for the express purpose of creating fertile land to farm on. The only reason they didn't build it on industrial land was because of anti-competitive deals with the zeewolde municipality in order to reduce the la…

> Also, there are no big supermarkets in the Netherlands.

When I was in the Netherlands there were a couple of AH XL that were pretty big, at least for my standards.

Not sure about how much square meters they occupied. And they were useful :)

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#84

Post by nec4b »

cornholio wrote: post #13
holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Where and how do you get your food?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#85

Post by spiderfarmer »

rr842j wrote: post #81
spiderfarmer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying them, while preventing they start over elsewhere. And also, all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries. That doesn’t sound fair, and isn’t.

First of all your claim that all savings in emissions are used to expand emissions in other industries needs a reference, but even if this claim were true, one could easily argue that more people on the Netherlands would benefit (for example) from affordable housing, than from exporting powdered milk or greenhouse tomatoes

Check https://www.ammoniakrechten.nl

Also, farmers don’t have to disappear for more housing. It seems the government does a great job pitting a lot of its citizens against farmers by lying that they are holding back new housing development, while the real issue is a lack of builders, too stringent guidelines and a lack of building materials.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#86

Post by spiderfarmer »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #63
shjake wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So offering them enough money so that it would be profitable for them to close their farms is bossing around? Using land for housing or (data center for that matter) is just more efficient most of the time.

Offering a carrot is okay. But offering a carrot and shit talking them while carrying a big stick is something else isn’t it.

And also, a datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient? They don’t pay much taxes and they don’t have many employees. Even the buildings are off the shelve imported from other countries.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#87

Post by spiderfarmer »

shjake wrote: post #53
spiderfarmer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a lot more ecologically disastrous to move operations to less suitable areas.

Wouldn’t most other places in Europe be much more suitable though just because of lower population density (and energy prices in some cases)?

I meant that agriculture in our fertile delta is way more efficient than trying to do the same in other countries with less suitable areas.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#88

Post by spiderfarmer »

Why_O_My wrote: post #58
mirekrusin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exported doesn't mean throwing in the trash, somebody is using and depending on it.

I know this meat is still used ofcourse. But with a country as small as ours, there simply are better uses of the space for our country and people.

There is no space. The land belongs to the farmers. It’s not up to you to decide what should be done with it.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#89

Post by mtts »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #87
shjake wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t most other places in Europe be much more suitable though just because of lower population density (and energy prices in some cases)?

I meant that agriculture in our fertile delta is way more efficient than trying to do the same in other countries with less suitable areas.

The agricultural lobby puts this out a lot, but it’s not true. The pig farmers and the dairy farmers that are causing the most problems require vast imports of fodder grown elsewhere. The efficiency of a lot of greenhouse agriculture is questionable as well (which was made obvious when a not insignificant chunk of its production was wound down when supplies of cheap Russian gas dried up.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#90

Post by mtts »

em-bee wrote: post #79
mtts wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that’s just setting a low bar. Dutch agriculture is anything but a bucolic idyl, instead consisting of very large industrial operations owned by an ever decreasing number of companies that produce vast amounts of food for export using imported feed and plowing the manure that remains, truly stupendous amounts, into the soil thereby rendering it effectively dead. Large tracts of the province of Drente, formerly…

can the excess heat of the datacenter be used to heat up the greenhouses?

This was the promise originally but it turned out to be impossible. As it turns out, data center waste water is nowhere near warm enough to use for heating.
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