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Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

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Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#81

Post by spitfire »

omonra wrote: post #18
josefresco wrote: post #8

I can only imagine how hard it is to have fair negotiations when a prospective employee applies at a competing company only to be told "no thanks" simply because of a hush hush agreement between the executives of said companies. This flies counter with Google's "do no evil" statement and certainly doesn't paint a positive posthumous picture of Jobs.

I'm tired of people bringing up 'don't do evil' EVERY time Google does something they dislike. New search results using personal targeting - EVIL! Anti-poaching agreement with Apple - EVIL! Closed down a bagel cafe next to my cubicle - EVIL! Can we all agree that the word Evil has a more sinister use - ie knowing endangering lives, environmental damage, maybe closing press freedoms? And, therefore, we should be more…

Evil

Occurs when individuals or groups embrace codes of conduct or standards of behavior for their own personal well being and social approval, yet violate those very same codes or standards to undermine the personal well being and social approval of others.

There's degrees of evil, but no shades. Evil was being done to people in this case.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#82

Post by devs1010 »

malandrew wrote: post #46

The one argument I get sick of hearing bandied around in cases like these is: "but those companies invested a lot of money in training their employees. How would you like it if you owned a business and trained someone only to have them poached?" In the words of Dwight Shrute: "False!". Most of the employees in question in this case and probably every other case where poaching is worthwhile are autodidacts. These empl…

I couldn't agree more.. software developers in general (and presumably those in other related fields) tend to mostly be autodidacts. Sure, you learn from other employees and from what the company has in place already but usually they are adding value the entire time, its not as if they sit you down for hours every week and put you in a classroom where there is no pressure other than "learn something new". Thats what school is for and anyone who is working in an engineering field is most likely spending time on their own working on projects, etc that improve their skills.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#83

Post by lucisferre »

malandrew wrote: post #46

The one argument I get sick of hearing bandied around in cases like these is: "but those companies invested a lot of money in training their employees. How would you like it if you owned a business and trained someone only to have them poached?" In the words of Dwight Shrute: "False!". Most of the employees in question in this case and probably every other case where poaching is worthwhile are autodidacts. These empl…

Exactly, they likely trained themselves as part of building this value, as well as probably training, mentoring and increasing the value of those around them.

The purpose behind these companies actions was nothing less than to artificially deflate the market value of these individuals, which is completely despicable.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#84

Post by devs1010 »

SonicSoul wrote: post #58

somewhat related. Last week a friend of mine that is growing his recruiting business tried to put me in contact with someone at this firm in NYC, for a position that sounds ideal for me and my background. Once he got to the HR department, and as soon as they saw where i currently work, they told him that they have some agreement about not hiring people from my current company and that was it. They didn't even seem to…

If you can, get him to say that in writing (email will do), find a good lawyer and sue him, the more scum that do this that are exposed (at any level) the better off employees are in this industry as a whole.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#85

Post by devs1010 »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #62

Here is a different perspective. As an entreppreneur, I would not want my employees poached. I do not miind them seeking out other opportunities, but I would want them to make the move, not an external entity. Poaching can create artificial demand. A satisfied employee an become unsatisfied overnight if he is offered a higher salary elsewhere which you don't/can't match. If I had the way to stop poaching, I will. If…

You deserve to be sued if you try to make agreements like this. Its part of the game, if you can't take it then get out, you don't own people and a big part of why people can make so much money and do well here is because of a system like this, if another company has a need and they can pay more then they get the person, plain and simple. There is no right to entrepreneurship.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#86

Post by devs1010 »

jphackworth wrote: post #54

So let's say I am running a startup with two employees. A friend of mine is also running a startup and needs to hire people. Is it wrong for me to ask him not to hire my employees?

At that level its a bit more of a personal issue but I think it would be wrong to have an agreement in place, sure you can ask and its likely that you would not poach each other's workers because it would damage your own relationship, however to keep this going as your company scales would definitely be wrong. You don't have to poach anyone's employees, but to have formal agreements in place not to do so is clearly collusion. This would also include summarily rejecting applications because they currently work for the other guy's startup.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#87

Post by devs1010 »

jballanc wrote: post #40

I think anyone whose opinion of Steve Jobs is changed by this knowledge needs to take a good look in the mirror and ask if they are not the hypocrite. Jobs always was a consumate businessman. Before Apple, even, he was scheming his way through a job, getting Wozniak to do his work and going back on his word to split profits. But isn't that what America is all about? Aren't your shoes, clothes, electronics, etc. made…

"Do you also get angry when oil companies hire lobbyists to wine-and-dine politicians until they give favorable exploration rights on federal lands to those companies? "

Yes, this does anger me, what is your point? I think a lot of people are angered by this, however this issue being discussed here is a bit "closer to home" in that we are probably more empowered to do something this issue than that of corruption in political lobbying.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#88

Post by tlogan »

It is getting clearer and cleared that Google is just as any big corporation which will do any illegal and un-ethical thing as long as they are not caught.

Now, many of companies started with excellent ethical standards, but that is getting slowly lost as companies grow.

I wonder if there is some similar work as "Innovators Dilemma" but about company's ethical standards: explaining why and when a company's become very prone to "fuck ethics" approach.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#89

Post by _delirium »

malandrew wrote: post #46

The one argument I get sick of hearing bandied around in cases like these is: "but those companies invested a lot of money in training their employees. How would you like it if you owned a business and trained someone only to have them poached?" In the words of Dwight Shrute: "False!". Most of the employees in question in this case and probably every other case where poaching is worthwhile are autodidacts. These empl…

In addition, if companies really do believe that, they can explicitly negotiate terms around it, up front. That's what happens with, for example, the military paying for med-school: you agree that you'll do N years with them subsequently as a military doctor, or will pay back the med-school tuition if you don't. Apple could negotiate something like that; options vesting schedules are one attempt. Alternately, they could negotiate minimum-term contracts, where the employee and Apple agree that neither side will terminate the employment relationship in fewer than N years without serious cause.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#90

Post by OoTheNigerian »

notatoad wrote: post #76
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #62

Here is a different perspective. As an entreppreneur, I would not want my employees poached. I do not miind them seeking out other opportunities, but I would want them to make the move, not an external entity. Poaching can create artificial demand. A satisfied employee an become unsatisfied overnight if he is offered a higher salary elsewhere which you don't/can't match. If I had the way to stop poaching, I will. If…

In what way does poaching create artificial demand? If your employee is valuable enough that another company wants to recruit them, that's not artificial demand, it's real demand. If you won't or can't match a salary somebody else is willing to pay, you deserve to lose that employee. If your employee can't do the tasks you require of him, you fire him. If you can't pay your employees what they are worth, they go else…

Lets take a scenario. You Hire a guy and pay him $120 K a year. Within 6 months you spend say $60k training him. He now theoretically becomes worth $120K per year.

Would you be happy if someone just came and offered that much? Considering the time taken to recruit and money to train him.

In essence, Facebook (or big spenders) can make a small talented startup their official recruiting arm.

As the guy being recruited, it is great. As an employer, it sucks.

I reiterate, if the employee wants to leave and initiates the process, I would not have a problem it that. However, I would not want my employees or business unsettled.

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