81–90 of 109 posts
Given that heat pumps and other technologies have proven themselves quite well at this point it is not a bad idea for SF to lead the country on this one and shows that one can electrify most stuff (if not all stuff)
What was that "n-gate" phrase "a city at war with it's citizens"?
> The rules would not apply to gas stoves. I assumed furnaces and water heaters are better ventilated, so this surprised me. Yes, those two emit more nitrogen oxides, but we should be more worried about them indoors than out.
They are. But people get much more defensive about their gas stoves, so here we are.
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Asking because I’m genuinely curious (because I’ve seen list prices and I’m trying to decide how much cheaper it is to move a gas line than to just swap out a heat pump for current furnace/AC - Is your estimate of $13k in the bay area? Are you including ducting in that estimate? Is that for a 2,3, or 4 ton system? Does that include electrical upgrades? I’ve seen the list prices of 2 ton systems at $4k (if available).…
Did you go inline gas (tankless) water heater? I am trying to figure out if it makes sense to switch to inline from tank water heater?
For me, I really needed the inline tankless installed outdoors - so it will be worth it (lose a messy laundry room, gain a bedroom). I figured upgrading to 400A service panel would take longer and be more annoying than doing gas.
As a Bay Area resident with no gas connection, here are points to ponder: 1) PG&E electricity costs are among the highest in the country per KWH. They have received approvals to increase these astronomical costs by 10% in the near future. Gas is cheaper, by a lot. 2) Any time we have winds or hot weather or cold weather, the grid is under pressure and we are asked to curb our electricity usage. 3) In the winter and s…
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It saves 89 people from NOx-related deaths. It is also a necessary step to reach carbon neutrality, which will save more lives.
Do you think that $34 billion could save, say, more than 89 people if spent on a more effective plan?
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Before someone chimes in with the obvious suggestions: a) Water heater is a heat pump set to high efficiency. b) Construction is 2016, so relatively new. c) We have done a lot to insulate the home. Net-net, this is an electricity cost issue; we are paying $0.42/KWH on average. This despite having some solar. This is not a profligate usage issue.
If you don't have gas service, how do you do space heating? Resistive electric? If so that could be very expensive. Also, insulation only deals with radiative heat losses and gains, not those causes by air leakage and conduction. High air leakage is quite possible for a 2016 house (especially in California where a lot of production built housing has been of poor quality). > Net-net, this is an electricity cost issue;…
Summer on-peak is $0.49 per KWH (1). Our average is $0.38, I had a math error.
Even with my error, the price of electricity in California is exorbitant and the grid is easily stretched to the limit => both will be exacerbated by increased demand from EVs and housing without gas lines. My math mistake doesn’t change the overall narrative.
1. https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra...
Hope their electricity isn't being generated with natural gas
Making houses energy-agnostic seems like a big win if the cost is low and it can be, especially on new constructions. Plus if you assume that natural gas is bad then it should be obvious that thousands of houses directly depending on it is much worse than indirectly depending on it via the local plant. The local plant centralizes safety and pollution measures (e.g. no domestic gas leaks) and it allows a much quicker swapping of energy sources by the city when the time comes.
> The air district estimated that the new rules for homes would cut nitrogen oxides enough to prevent 89 deaths per year in the Bay Area. A unit that does ducted heating and AC is around $13k installed. And the water heater is probably around $4k installed if you include electrical (which you're gonna have to if you have gas). So you're looking at forcing about 2 million houses to spend $17k to save 89 people per yea…
Assuming the Bay Area won't construct a significant number of new homes we only need to look at existing homes. The rule only covers new installations, which will be mostly people replacing broken systems and a few upgrades. How much more will it cost to replace your furnace when it has to be electric compared to when you could replace with gas?
That turns out to be the wrong question too, though. Per Angie's list the averages heat pump install costs $1,514 less than the averages gas furnace install [1]. Gas vs electric boilers costs around the same, so let's say the savings from the heat pump install and the loss from needing to upgrade your electrical system even out and the unit replacements cost about the same.
But you lose money on the routine operating costs. A rough estimate [2] based on Bay Area Dec 2022 energy prices [3] estimates that a 60,000 btu gas furnace would cost $579 less annually to operate than an analogous 5 ton heat pump with a good HSPF rating (10).
Is this a crazy amount to spend every year per household on saving that many people?
(Interestingly the the Bay Area spends around the same on cops per household[4], but there's no good data on how many lives that saves.)
Edit: Even if you disagree that the replacement costs about the same, remember to divide the delta by the 10-15 year lifespan of the unit so that your cost and lives saved are in the same unit.
[1] https://www.angi.com/articles/how-much-does-heat-pump-cost.h... [2] https://www.angi.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-install-... [2] https://www.pickhvac.com/hvac/furnace-vs-heat-pump-cost/ [3] https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyp... [4] SF + San Jose + Oakland police, not counting state troopers, was 1.079B in 2021 per https://cities.bythenumbers.sco.ca.gov/#!/year/2021/operatin...
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You mean like fossil fuels? Being off-grid has never been easier since we made great progress on electrifying everything.
Among other things the utilities proposed for NEM 3.0 that it be made unlawful to generate electricity off grid and not sell it to the utility at wholesale rates (which they would then sell back to you at retail rates). I believe that proposal is dead this time but they're not going to stop trying. Several long term trends are challenging the viability of a public electrical grid, among them the low cost of solar.
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Good luck getting natural gas service after an earthquake severe enough to knock out power. Natural gas lines are far more at risk of breaking during such an event, and the gas utility will usually shut off gas supply until they are sure there aren't major leaks. After an earthquake, you are supposed to shut off your own supply at your meter with a gas wrench.
I live in an earthquake prone place and gas canisters, that is what we have with a single burner portable stove for emergency. We had a 6.7 earthquake 4 years ago, power and water went out for 3 days. Our emergency kit that included bottled water and portable stove with gas canister what helped us. I can't imagine right now experiencing such an event when temperatures are -13C.