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Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

sfchronicle.com

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Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#41

Post by nwiswell »

thomas_ma wrote: post #36
Thorrez wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the efficiency of * natural gas -> fire -> heat -> electricity in massive generator -> home -> induction stove -> pan compare to * natural gas -> fire -> heat -> pan ? And resistive is worse than induction.

Energy efficiency is going to be better with induction in that scenario since it only heats the food, not the pan, stovetop, etc. On top of that, the pollution is dramatically reduced. A modern natural gas turbine at a power plant is dramatically cleaner burning than an open flame in a kitchen stove.

> On top of that, the pollution is dramatically reduced. A modern natural gas turbine at a power plant is dramatically cleaner burning than an open flame in a kitchen stove.

Not to mention the pollution from the power plant is not going directly into your home (or face).

This is not a small or hypothetical impact. From the article:

> The air district estimated that the new rules for homes would cut nitrogen oxides enough to prevent 89 deaths per year in the Bay Area.

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#42

Post by dehrmann »

> The rules would not apply to gas stoves.

I assumed furnaces and water heaters are better ventilated, so this surprised me. Yes, those two emit more nitrogen oxides, but we should be more worried about them indoors than out.

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#43

Post by notinfuriated »

jliptzin wrote: post #8
newyankee wrote: post #2

Given that heat pumps and other technologies have proven themselves quite well at this point it is not a bad idea for SF to lead the country on this one and shows that one can electrify most stuff (if not all stuff)

[flagged]

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Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#44

Post by triceratops »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #16
newyankee wrote: post #2

Given that heat pumps and other technologies have proven themselves quite well at this point it is not a bad idea for SF to lead the country on this one and shows that one can electrify most stuff (if not all stuff)

I can’t think of a way to electrify launching a payload into orbit, but who knows what the future might think up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#45

Post by duskwuff »

dehrmann wrote: post #42

> The rules would not apply to gas stoves. I assumed furnaces and water heaters are better ventilated, so this surprised me. Yes, those two emit more nitrogen oxides, but we should be more worried about them indoors than out.

They are. But people get much more defensive about their gas stoves, so here we are.

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#46

Post by fwlr »

> The rules would essentially require all new residential construction to have electric water heaters by 2027 and heat pumps instead of furnaces by 2029.

Not to be overly snide, but does the Bay Area even do any “new residential construction”?

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#47

Post by sgc »

hamandcheese wrote: post #26
xboxnolifes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are people so attached to gas stoves when we have induction anyways? People are attached to gas stoves because the usual alternative you see in rented units is shitty electric stoves bought at the lowest cost, not induction.

As an SF apartment dweller, this is my main concern. My apartment has a shitty stove, but you know what? At least it's gas. If it gets replaced, I am 110% sure it will not be with a nice induction stove. It will be with the cheapest electric stove that's available.

There might be a code cycle lag, but they will mandate induction as well I am sure, because it is more energy efficient than older style electric stoves.

https://www.energystar.gov/about/2021_residential_induction_...

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#48

Post by adrianN »

Thorrez wrote: post #22
noahtallen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This code would be about home appliances. But it turns out that massive generators are pretty efficient since they can operate at a huge scale. So even if the electricity replacing the gas stove was generated with gas, it'd still be better for the environment (and human health)

How does the efficiency of * natural gas -> fire -> heat -> electricity in massive generator -> home -> induction stove -> pan compare to * natural gas -> fire -> heat -> pan ? And resistive is worse than induction.

A lot of the heat of the flame doesn't end up in the pan.

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#49

Post by jhatax »

As a Bay Area resident with no gas connection, here are points to ponder:

1) PG&E electricity costs are among the highest in the country per KWH. They have received approvals to increase these astronomical costs by 10% in the near future. Gas is cheaper, by a lot.

2) Any time we have winds or hot weather or cold weather, the grid is under pressure and we are asked to curb our electricity usage.

3) In the winter and summer, our monthly bill for a home of 2 with the thermostats set to 63 in the winter and 79 in the summer is $300+.

Someone else’s mileage and bills might be different. But 62 is cold in the winter. 79 is hot in the summer. Sometimes unbearably so.

If the Bay Area wants to go this route, PG&E needs to be reined in, SIGNIFICANTLY. Bills are borderline unaffordable right now; the future isn’t any cheaper.

Re: Bay Area plan to ban natural gas

#50

Post by bluSCALE4 »

newyankee wrote: post #2

Given that heat pumps and other technologies have proven themselves quite well at this point it is not a bad idea for SF to lead the country on this one and shows that one can electrify most stuff (if not all stuff)

I hate my heat pump. Load as hell, makes the basement freezing in the winter, 50 gallon is really 45 gallon, time to reheat sucks, doesn't pair well with recirculating pumps, electric usage is more expensive than gas. Basically, get a size up compared to whatever you used for gas and you'll be good.
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