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Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

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Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

Certainly a respect for the individual played a role. Thomas Hobbes argued for a strong monarch specifically to protect their subjects and their subjects’ property. Other philosophers like John Lock, David Hume, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill would expand on this and build the classically liberal tradition. But we also can’t underestimate the impact of: 1) abundant energy sources—initially wood and then coal that c…

6) There are several similar but different societies that shared a common ancestry (with the Romans and Greeks)

This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive.

As trade grew so did the exchange of ideas in Europe. Different regimes had different views on intellectuals. Famously, Da Vinci and Voltaire had multiple patrons through their lives.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#82

[flagged]

this comment has successfully derailed the conversation. now we're talking about the arab person's disposition to freedom like it's twenty years ago and not what the kingdom of saudi arabia does to wikipedia editors, which is what the article you're ostensibly commenting on is about. what a waste of space.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#83

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People talk about the “evil west” in context of our own self professed values. When we do things like overthrow democratically elected leaders (Iran) and prop up dictatorships that are friendly to our interests, all while talking about how great we are, that’s what evil.

The Iraq war is a textbook example of this. We claimed it was all about freedom and democracy, but the reality was that we had long supported Saddam while he fought an incredibly bloody war against Iran in the 80s, but he eventually fell out of favor when he started growing too ambitious and invade Kuwait. In the end, the US decided it would be better to just try and do the job ourselves and just overthrow him directly and nation build in our image in Iraq (and Afghanistan), surrounding Iran on both sides and setting things up for the next stage.

We all know how it turned out, both Iraq and Afghanistan are looked upon as disasters, as both countries saw untold death and destruction, and aren’t any better off for it.

Does that mean that I personally, as a citizen of the west think that the western values we profess are inferior, or have some sort of image of “noble” Muslims that are perfect and can do no wrong? Of course not. I am a reflection of the culture I was raised in and hold western values deeply. Which is why it enrages me that people chauvinistically look down upon people from other societies while ignoring the fact that we’ve gone into their countries and committed literal war crimes and pardoned the offenders. [0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallag...

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#84
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The things that keep the west alive are abstract, unfathomable concepts to the Ummah. As a Muslim, this is so incorrect to the point of almost absurdity. Just because you have encountered one person who appeared to you that he did not understand or comprehend a certain topic you were explaining, does not mean that the rest of the Muslims are the same. I can point you to many many youtube channels (just as an exampl…

"One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara. Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only ex…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world#Secular_states

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no first amendment anywhere outside USA This is wrong on every level except technical[0]. While other countries in Europe aren't as free-speech extremist as the US, there are still protections on speech in those countries. The biggest exception to that I can see in France or Germany would be the constitutional prohibitions on being a literal Nazi [1]. I Googled "romanian arrested for opinions" and got a bun…

Who was talking about Tate or "adequacy" of the second? It was just a list of examples of rights that don't exist outside USA, not about effectiveness, morality, adequacy etc. Want it or not, the world is mostly not free . Romanian law: Law 107 of 2006. UK: you can even find even lawyer's explanations for that prayer thing, with full details, just look for it. Please explain how most of European countries, for exampl…

I was talking about Tate because that's the first thing I found in Google and you didn't provide the proper context.

Searching for Romanian Law 107 of 2006 brings up an anti-discrimination statute and an article from civic-nation.org that says[0]:

>Anti-racism Act № 107/2006 (preceded by government decree № 31/2002) prohibits the operation of organizations of fascist, racist or xenophobic nature, participation in such organizations, the use of symbols of this kind, as well as the occultism surrounding personalities who were guilty of crimes against peace and humanity. The law also foresees criminal liability for the Holocaust deniers. By the end of monitoring this Article has not been used towards anyone.

My read on this is that it's substantially similar to the German constitutional prohibition on Nazis. And as I said in the footnotes before, I do not believe Nazis are entitled to free speech, on the grounds that their explicit political ideology is to censor and kill people. If there's an example of this prohibition being unfairly used against people who are not Nazis, then I will happily rail against it and add it to my list of "shitty things governments do". But as it stands this is not "evidence that America is the only country with free speech". It's about as much of a difference as permissive licensing vs. the GPL.

I still agree that the anti-abortion protester in the UK was being censored. To square that off with my prior paragraph of assertions, anti-abortion activists don't pose a threat to free speech like how Nazis do. They are irksome and morally repugnant but not censorious.

Australia has no express right to free speech, which is a constitutional problem. However, Canada does has a right to free expression, which functions the same as it does in Europe. In either case, the amount of potential or actual harm to free speech is nowhere near "jailed for 20 years for editing Wikipedia" levels of censorship.

And America is not a free speech haven either - in fact, our censorship problem is arguably worse than Europe's. Left-wing activists were routinely investigated and attacked for decades by the CIA and FBI. The intelligence community uses classification and espionage law to silence and punish whistleblowers. This was all done under the auspices of a textually unmodified 1st Amendment.

[0] https://civic-nation.org/romania/government/legislation/anti...

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, citation needed about the last time a western government stoned, beheaded, or hung to death a gay man for sucking dick?

Nazis happened less than 100 years ago and they notably targeted homosexuals.

Most people who were old enough to fight in WWII are in wheelchairs or nursing homes now. Hardly comparable to Islamic regimes stoning homosexuals now.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should ask the king that question.

Plenty of democratic countries have monarchs. Most of Europe still has monarchs, because they're constitutional monarchies -- which is a fairly common democratic form of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy What matters is not whether there is a king, but the details of how the specific powers are allocated between the different parts of government. Sweden is also a constitutional monarch…

Two of European monarchies are also peculiar in that they are elective: the Vatican and Andorra. (The Vatican is also technically a theocracy)

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#88
post #46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. I'm not sure they were. They kicked off when food prices spiked, and proximate causes were corruption and unemployment. Officially endorsed foreign protests against government we don't particularly like are always described as being about freedom in the west for reasons that aren't always good. >The idea that citizens in Tu…

As an Egyptian who took part of the arab spring, I really laughed on your argument (sorry no insult). But as simple as argument it is, It doesn't hold because you see the Egyptian currency is no almost 6x less with 10x or more on average for food prices and there is no movement to overthrow the current regime. And for corruption and unemployment, they are much worse now than before. Then more than half the country ar…

Arab Spring didn't start in Egypt, it spread to Egypt.

It might be that the conditions are just as ripe now as they were under Arab spring.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Joseph Henrich says it’s the medieval church’s prohibition on cousin marriage, which dissolved the strong kinship bonds that dominate the rest of the world. He has a book on the subject called The WEIRDest People In The World which is good.

Wow sounds interesting! Thanks for the recommendation.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#90
post #29

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Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West. The West still doesn't get it because in their system, emergency powers override every "inalienable right" the Westerners think they are entitled to.

>Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West.

Could you please elaborate on this? In my understanding, inalienable, or natural rights are of ancient Greek origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rights_and_legal_right...

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