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'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

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Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#81

Post by jbooth »

phaus wrote: post #40
jbooth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so we've catapulted the whole defending the erosion of our rights thing and now we're into personally insulting the person who told the story. Good move, considering the grounds of your argument and all. I'll repeat my question.. how bad would it have to be for you to agree with civil disobedience?

I never said that I disagree with civil disobedience. I just don't agree with this woman's perspective on exactly what transpired in this situation. I've worked for the federal government my entire adult life. If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless. The way bureaucrats make decisions is not logical. If you give them 999 examples of the TSA breaking t…

I wasn't accusing you of hating freedom, but I was accusing you of being a hater.

If 1,000 people did what this women did, it would still have no impact. 10,000, now you're talking. But you need the brave souls to get it started.

Like I said originally, I'm not saying you need to go out and do this. I haven't, shamefully. But hating on those who do it, really?

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#82

Post by harrylove »

phaus wrote: post #40
jbooth wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so we've catapulted the whole defending the erosion of our rights thing and now we're into personally insulting the person who told the story. Good move, considering the grounds of your argument and all. I'll repeat my question.. how bad would it have to be for you to agree with civil disobedience?

I never said that I disagree with civil disobedience. I just don't agree with this woman's perspective on exactly what transpired in this situation. I've worked for the federal government my entire adult life. If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless. The way bureaucrats make decisions is not logical. If you give them 999 examples of the TSA breaking t…

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that her efforts will have no positive impact. What you may be trying to say is that her actions alone will not change the law, and that is true. It may also be true that she is a lunatic, but that does not change her status as a citizen and is, therefore, irrelevant. Since civil disobedience may involve breaking the law in order to demonstrate injustice, whether she broke the law or not is also irrelevant.

Rosa Parks has been mentioned before. Her civil disobedience was not the first of its kind in the fight for civil rights. It was not even the first of its kind involving the bus laws. She is famous for having been the last such incident before the Montgomery Bus Boycott.

I believe this woman's actions in demonstration against the TSA will be one of many that plant a seed. I also mention her because part of her story sounds eerily familiar.

"Two policemen came on the bus and one asked me if the driver had told me to stand and I said, 'Yes.' And he wanted to know why I didn't stand, and I told him I didn't think I should have to stand up. And then I asked him, why did they push us around? And he said, and I quote him, 'I don't know, but the law is the law and you are under arrest.'" - http://achievement.org/autodoc/page/par0int-1

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#83

Post by ChrisLTD »

easp wrote: post #25
peterwwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stupid things are also incredibly brave and necessary. If you have no other way of fighting what you know is wrong, you have to provoke a response.

Some people dismiss the power and value of symbolism (particularly symbolism that doesn't resonate with THEM, even if it resonates with other people). Perhaps this particular bit of symbolism, or the way it was deployed, won't end up being effective, but experimentation and iteration is key.

I think you may have just invented 'Agile Protests'!

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#84

Post by ChrisLTD »

grhino wrote: post #57
[deleted] wrote: post #43

[deleted]

There are hidden costs to increased airport security. Money spent on increased airport security could be spent elsewhere. The expected cost of a unwanted event should be less than or equal to the expected cost of preventing that event. The choice to implement a security policy should be a rational one.

True. However politicians are the ones who make the rules. And no politician wants to be left holding the bag if a terrorist attack does happen. They want to be seen as having done everything possible even if what they are doing isn't effective.

Sadly, I'm not sure how we can change this dynamic. Will we ever punish politicians for being too hostile to civil liberties? Most people/voters simply don't care.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#85

Post by phaus »

sidswift wrote: post #80
phaus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said that I disagree with civil disobedience. I just don't agree with this woman's perspective on exactly what transpired in this situation. I've worked for the federal government my entire adult life. If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless. The way bureaucrats make decisions is not logical. If you give them 999 examples of the TSA breaking t…

>If you want to convince them to get rid of the TSA, the side asking for the change has to appear blameless. Is this workable? People, and specially governments, can find blame in so many ways that you can't convince them of anything unless they are forced or they realise it themselves. (In my country, protestors against massive corruption are framed for minor things they did in past and both media and government rep…

In my eyes, a well organized mass-protest is a legitimate channel.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#86

Post by georgemcbay »

'I yell, “Thomas Jefferson said, 'those who would give up their liberty for their security deserve neither.'”'

Actually that was Ben Franklin. But otherwise, bravo.

For all the talk of moving your domains on the 29th to boycott godaddy's support of SOPA, I wish an 'assert your 4th Amendment right while flying' day would work, but I don't think it would because the vast majority of people (even those who are supposedly activist-minded) are only willing to protest when the cost to do so is very low.

That's why godaddy is a whipping boy and the TSA is more powerful than ever.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#87

Post by cafard »

MoreMoschops wrote: post #18
cafard wrote: post #11

Should the TSA have done this? No. Should the author have expected to have the glamor of martyrdom without the inconveniences attached? This question is left as an exercise for the reader.

The inconvenience IS the glamour of martyrdom. If the TSA had calmly and politely carried out the hands-on search as she recited the constitution, there would have been no effect. No inconvenience, no martyr.

Quite. But now rewrite the article to take out reduce it to the facts not including her psychological/physiological state (effects of handcuffs on wrists OK, relevant; perspiration rate not really.) Does it read differently?

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#88

Post by outworlder »

grannyg00se wrote: post #73

This is a very interesting experiment she decided to conduct on what seems to be little to no research. I'm glad that she didn't get seriously injured or harassed or locked up for several days. From what I can tell, once they got her isolated she was treated very well. But it was dangerous. As far as I'm concerned, once you step into an airport (especially an american airport) you are no longer a citizen of any parti…

"As far as I'm concerned, once you step into an airport (especially an american airport) you are no longer a citizen of any particular country and have no rights."

This. As a tourist, I've found the US to be quite nice and I would like to visit more often.

However, all this theater makes me want to avoid flying as much as possible. I have been treated well so far, but I wonder how much of it boils down to sheer luck.

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#89

Post by [deleted] »

phaus wrote: post #12
peterwwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stupid things are also incredibly brave and necessary. If you have no other way of fighting what you know is wrong, you have to provoke a response.

She didn't accomplish anything besides making herself look like a lunatic. As I stated, I really hate the TSA and all of the abuses that have occurred, but this isn't going to help. The TSA has been guilty on numerous occasions of violating a person's constitutional rights. They have endangered the lives of some passengers and outright assaulted others. I really do hope that they are taken to task for the things that…

[deleted]

Re: 'TSA Arrests Me for Using the Fourth Amendment as a Weapon'

#90

Post by tommi »

grannyg00se wrote: post #73

This is a very interesting experiment she decided to conduct on what seems to be little to no research. I'm glad that she didn't get seriously injured or harassed or locked up for several days. From what I can tell, once they got her isolated she was treated very well. But it was dangerous. As far as I'm concerned, once you step into an airport (especially an american airport) you are no longer a citizen of any parti…

> This is a very interesting experiment she decided to conduct on what seems to be little to no research.

How do you come to such conclusion?

> But it was dangerous.

In what way? Dangerous as in her constitutional rights might be violated?

> As far as I'm concerned, once you step into an airport (especially an american airport) you are no longer a citizen of any particular country and have no rights.

That is just sad. What's the next step? You don't have any rights in a railway station? Subways?

> ...I imagine all security processing had come to a halt at that point.

On a single line perhaps, not all.

> Also, if somebody nearby was planning on doing something, she would have created the perfect time to do it.

How so? If a simple delay on a check point creates a "perfect time" and it is an actual big risk, then there are bigger problems on that airport.

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