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Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

bloomberg.com

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Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#81

Post by JumpCrisscross »

arcticfox wrote: post #78
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which means the feds didn't actually seize anything Seizure is tied to possession, a legal concept [1]. Not control. Courts commonly authorize the seizure assets not yet under the government's physical control. (I agree the terminology is misleading.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/seizure

That's good to know! But the title is the part that is so misleading that it's essentially inaccurate - you can't steal something back that was never taken away. This would be like the feds "seizing" a car, and you drive it away before they actually come take possession of it. Hardly stealing it back, they simply never had it.

> you can't steal something back that was never taken away

"Taken away" muddles legal possession and control. If someone takes control of your un-attended car, we call that stealing.

> would be like the feds "seizing" a car, and you drive it away before they actually come take possession of it. Hardly stealing it back

Legally, it is. Colloquially, that's silly phrasing. (Not disagreeing at all that the headline is silly. Hacker absconds with frozen coins would be clearer. Though we'd then have a page full of questions about what frozen coins are doing in transit.)

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#82

Post by galangalalgol »

sgtnoodle wrote: post #67
wmf wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides what other people said, if a device is always on, dumping data directly to the Feds then it will be hot and its battery life will be very short.

Maybe smart phones would last a week on one charge if they weren't running the fed rootkit? :-p

My iphone 12 does last a week. But I only use it to check work email a few times a day. My android lasts a day and abhalf with normal use.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#83

Post by ghastmaster »

fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #46
Avshalom wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course now anyone who can be traced to a wallet that interacts with these coins is now a criminal for receiving stolen goods, or obstruction of justice or probably a dozen other things.

A lot of crimes require mens rea , ie. being guilty would require knowing the bitcoins are shady.

While perhaps not criminal, receiving them could subject a person to asset seizure. Usually stolen things are seized whether the receiver knows they are stolen or not. The burden is then on the receiver to persue criminal, or more likely, civil action.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#84

Post by Thorrez »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #42
cantSpellSober wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as opposed to what? There are more words in that sentence. Are there other examples where someone "remotely [swiped] Bitcoin stored on a computer device the government had already seized in another case ?" They seem to define "stored on service" in this case as "accessible only with access to device." It's an interesting case: is it harder to recover physical assets from a police storage locker than digital?

> It's an interesting case because it's harder to recover physical assets from a police storage locker than digital. I feel like you missed the whole point the comment you replied to made. If the person who stored the cryptocoins on the physically seized computer had a copy of the private keys on another computer (COMPLETELY NORMAL) and the prosecutor never transferred the coins making the assumption that physically…

>and the prosecutor never transferred the coins making the assumption that physically holding them was good enough, then that is an invaluable lesson they just

The prosecutor didn't make that assumption. The prosecutor was unable to move the bitcoin because the prosecutor didn't know the PIN.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#85

Post by Thorrez »

mjthrowaway1 wrote: post #36
artdigital wrote: post #21

> Agents built a detailed financial picture of Larry. Inspecting his cloud accounts, they found a Google Glass photo of a computer screen showing the Helix administrator page Wow, a picture taken with google glass is one of the things that got him

Sounds like parallel construction.

I'm not sure it's very good parallel construction. They say they only got the picture after subpoenaing data from his cloud account. So the police talking about this picture doesn't eliminate any public discussion of how the police got enough suspicion and evidence in order to get a subpoena in the first place.

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#86

Post by FormerBandmate »

throw101010 wrote: post #22

> The prosecutors accuse Harmon of a very unusual crime: remotely swiping Bitcoin... As opposed to what, "locally" swiping Bitcoin? > ... Bitcoin stored on a computer device the government had already seized in another case Yeah that's your problem Mr. Prosecutor, you have no idea where bitcoins are "stored" or what the device you have seized is. Which leads me to think you are not qualified to "seize" this type of a…

>It's simple, like all crypto newbies this prosecutor has just learned: Not your keys, not your coins.

The US government can throw your ass in prison for the rest of your life so yes, it is their coins. This is the basis of all government power and in a lot of cases, like this, it's good

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#87

Post by closedloop129 »

Avshalom wrote: post #45
throw101010 wrote: post #22

> The prosecutors accuse Harmon of a very unusual crime: remotely swiping Bitcoin... As opposed to what, "locally" swiping Bitcoin? > ... Bitcoin stored on a computer device the government had already seized in another case Yeah that's your problem Mr. Prosecutor, you have no idea where bitcoins are "stored" or what the device you have seized is. Which leads me to think you are not qualified to "seize" this type of a…

of course now anyone who can be traced to a wallet that interacts with these coins is now a criminal for receiving stolen goods, or obstruction of justice or probably a dozen other things.

How is this not the kill-switch for bitcoin? Every bitcoin comes with the risk of having been in a wallet of a criminal. Since all transactions are kept forever, shouldn't every bitcoin be at risk of being seized?

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#88

Post by olalonde »

jandrese wrote: post #8

This was bound to happen eventually. People have been noting for awhile how often law enforcement just leaves the "seized" coins in the original wallet somehow thinking that no criminal would ever make a backup copy of their private keys.

> People have been noting for awhile how often law enforcement just leaves the "seized" coins in the original wallet

Do you have any source on that?

Re: Feds seized $311M in Bitcoin, then hacker stole it back

#89

Post by jonas21 »

throw101010 wrote: post #22

> The prosecutors accuse Harmon of a very unusual crime: remotely swiping Bitcoin... As opposed to what, "locally" swiping Bitcoin? > ... Bitcoin stored on a computer device the government had already seized in another case Yeah that's your problem Mr. Prosecutor, you have no idea where bitcoins are "stored" or what the device you have seized is. Which leads me to think you are not qualified to "seize" this type of a…

Uh, those are the reporter's words, not the prosecutor's.

If you read the indictment [1], the word "remotely" never appears, and it's pretty clear the prosecutors understand how Bitcoin works.

If anyone's clueless here, it's Gary Harmon, who showed up at his brother's court hearing, learned that the government had not yet secured the Bitcoin that it legally had a right to, then almost immediately moved that Bitcoin to other wallets, and... just figured nobody would notice?

[1] https://www.scribd.com/document/521749057/USA-v-Gary-Harmon-...

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