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The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

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Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#81

Post by OJFord »

alephnerd wrote: post #68
OJFord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) (Because we pay taxes to the crown, doesn't really make sense for the king to pay tax to his majesty's own revenue and customs, HMRC. That said, there was something in the accension council about continuing to volunteer tax on something or another, and as the Duke of Cornwall he volunteered tax on duchy income. My understanding is that the royal family i…

What about revenue generated from Waitrose Duchy Organic and other Crown owned but Private enterprises[0]? Not combative but actually curious, but I'd prefer an actual legal opinion on this, not some online commentator to be honest. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitrose_Duchy_Organic

Well I'm not qualified to give 'an actual legal opinion', so this is the best I can do: https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/what-duchy-originals-it-any...

To stray back into 'some online commentator' though, I believe that may be outdated: I think it's now wholly Waitrose, just a brand. (Notice there's no Essentials/Cooks Ingredients organic brand/products - if it's organic it's Duchy Organic.)

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#82

Post by valarauko »

alephnerd wrote: post #71
valarauko wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know the boundaries of each empire, and can make guesstimates of each population. Weigh each claim by how long they held it, and the population of each historic state at the time, not the modern successor state. So the centroid of "ownership" would move across South Asia over time (I doubt a weighed centroid would ever leave South Asia). Advance the clock, and the centroid would advance from Southeast India to the…

Well, it was defacto owned by Gulab Singh at that point (who was basically his own automous and honestly pretty evil warlord - fun fact, my mom's side of the family is directly descended from his top general and my dad's side of the family emigrated to British India because in the 1800s they were mere Pahari peasants who were required to partake in forced labor for Raja Gulab Singh's family, and resettled on a portio…

> defacto owned by Gulab Singh at that point

Sure, not in dispute. The point of the exercise is to recontextualize ownership of colonial spoils as the heritage of the colonized people, rather than the personal property of the monarchs involved, or the successor states of an empire. Indeed, I would broaden that to include all wealth plundered from the people, including by their own nobility. If the goal is to restore the diamond to the people who have had the greatest claim to it, it's not an impossible task to determine where their descendants currently live. If we seek to consider to simply restore the diamond to the last royal claimant (and their successor entity) before British hands entered the long relay of property ownership, I'm not sure much is accomplished.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#83

Post by ekianjo »

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #64
alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

Quoted post unavailable.

So instead of an an actual solution to the given problem you resorted to snark?

Timeless.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#84

Post by karencarits »

pacetherace wrote: post #54
bubblematrix wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the British didn't genocide during the partition of India - the internal clash of Sikhs, Hindus, and Muslims going to war was it's own doing... You're framing it like British soldiers went in there and massacred India during that time. Wrong.

It was absolutely the fault of the British. The partition lines were drawn by lawyer with little to no inputs from experts.

These discussions are difficult because events happen as series; what is meant by responsibility and "who's fault"? Is everyone who participated in the series of events to blame as they did not prevent it to progress? In what ways are drawing pertition lines and performing violence similar and different in terms of guilt or "faultiness" (and is there any point in discussing it)?

You may not even disagree; you and GP state different things which may both be true depending on what is understood by "fault"

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#85

Post by sfg »

alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

Does it have to go to any country? Duleep Singh was the owner, when the British took it. Who is his legal heir?

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#86

Post by alfl »

alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

The Crown pays taxes: https://www.royal.uk/royal-finances-0?ch=5#bio-section-4

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#87

Post by golem14 »

electriclove wrote: post #62
alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

Put it in a museum in India. Yes, it might piss some off, but this idea of keeping the status quo (keeping it with the British) because it is complicated is ridiculous.

If it needs to be given away, maybe to a museum belonging to the United Nations? I'm not sure if there are truly extraterritorial museums, though.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#88

Post by b112 »

alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation)

The rest of your comment scans, but this bit seems weird to me.

What does the rate of inflation have to do, with taxation?

Some points:

- we are no where near record inflation, at least not in the US and Canada, and I presume the UK too. I recall 18% being thrown around in the 80s.

- changing tax policy due to inflation seems a weird idea to me. Inflation causes cost of living changes, but also, as a result, wage increases are fought for and won.

If anything, inflation needs to see taxation brackets moving upward to be fair! Not more taxation...

- look at all consumption tax. Inflation goes up, pricing goes up, so sales tax, gas tax, etc collected increases as a result.

I guess I don't get the inflation angle.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#89

Post by Ozzie_osman »

Victerius wrote: post #73
Ozzie_osman wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

No, it's a legitimate argument. If the British had taken possession of an object from an Indian tribe in California in 1800, who would be entitled to it? The U.S. government? The government of Mexico? The State of California? The Tribes' descendants? Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Yes, for your hypothetical object, all of those parties would have a more legitimate claim than the British, and so I'd argue that any of them would be a step in the right direction (though more specifically, I'd say the tribes' descendants have the most legitimate claim).

By the way, there are many examples of colonizing European countries refusing to return things they took during colonization where that "we don't know who we should give it to" argument is much weaker or non-existent.

For example, Egypt has many items that are on display in European (mostly British and French) museums that it has tried to regain where ownership is not that complicated because the item was taken from Egypt by a European without complicated chains that might affect who owns what.

Maybe the most famous is the Rosetta Stone, which was found and taken by French troops from Egypt, then given to the British via some treaty, and the British refuse to give it back despite many calls from Egypt. You could say something like "oh well it's unclear whether the British should give it back to the French or the Egyptians"... but I hope you can see how that would be a stretch.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#90

Post by sct202 »

zardo wrote: post #44
mberning wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They stole it fair and square. If somebody is mad about it they should steal it back.

Stealing it is just theft. To make it "legitimate" you have to claim it by conquest.

You also would have had to loot it before looting and pillaging became a war crime. If it's looted now and found, it usually goes back to the last owner or country of origin if it was from an archeological site.
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