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Who cares about diversity?

fakenous.substack.com

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Re: Who cares about diversity?

#81
Part of affirmative action (AA) involves addressing some of the issues specific to american society, I have no clue how diversity is handled outside the US but would love to hear someone else's experience

To a certain degree prejudice is ingrained in the US. Not officially in laws, but in attitudes that some (not all) people hold. Not any one specific group of people either, but prejudice across different ethnic groups. AA isn't independent of this prejudice, just a more recent and politicized form of it

I think the way that it has been discussed in recent years isn't going to sustain itself long term. The way that higher education discriminates against Asians is especially egregious

(source: "The reason that it is harder for Asian Americans to get into Harvard is that their “personal ratings” (a subjective evaluation of personal qualities) are, on average, significantly lower than for white applicants." (https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/10/01/why-th...))

The same "personal rating" bs was historically used to limit the number of Jewish applicants. At the end of the day, the Asian applicants would likely benefit from just not providing race or selecting the "other" category.

The only way that the current system can sustain itself is by having people honestly self identify, yet there's no legal ramifications for not doing this. If people genuinely want to end this system, all they have to do is stop giving it real data to work with

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#82

Isn't the real issue behind all the names (diversity, inclusion, etc) about the equalizing of opportunity or at the very least, bringing certain oppressed groups (and, if you don't think certain groups are or have been oppressed or discriminated against, educate yourself) up the opportunity curve? Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with?

Skin color and gender are terrible measures of "opportunities you have". Money is much more indicative

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#83

Isn't the real issue behind all the names (diversity, inclusion, etc) about the equalizing of opportunity or at the very least, bringing certain oppressed groups (and, if you don't think certain groups are or have been oppressed or discriminated against, educate yourself) up the opportunity curve? Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with?

> Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with

Yes. I do not want to live in a world where genetic editing is used to give everyone equal opportunity. I am ok with not having the genetics to play in the NBA while others do.

Diversity should not be the end goal. A healthy society that provides basic needs for all should be. If that means we have mostly people that share X characteristics in Y field that’s fine as long as they’re the best people for the job.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#84
post #2

It could be that the people do care about the values listed, but don't know an effective way to guarantee them, and that existing diversity statements are a stopgap measure until something better is figured out. But no, let's jump directly to "Conclusion: By and large, they don’t care about diversity. They’re just lying, in a really transparent way, because they think it gives them a patina of legal legitimacy." Or..…

He argued that if universities cared about diversity their positions on affirmative action would be more dynamic than is commonly accepted. e.g.:

> Affirmative action would also apply more strongly to, say, immigrants from Iran, or Korea, or Israel, than to black people (or anyone else) from our own society.

The examples he uses demonstrate that, in his mind, caring about diversity requires measuring circumstance. You might argue that universities are not so shallow as he's claiming, but I don't believe the article is mere mudslinging.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#85
post #20
post #2

It could be that the people do care about the values listed, but don't know an effective way to guarantee them, and that existing diversity statements are a stopgap measure until something better is figured out. But no, let's jump directly to "Conclusion: By and large, they don’t care about diversity. They’re just lying, in a really transparent way, because they think it gives them a patina of legal legitimacy." Or..…

The original article went into an in-depth analysis that you label as “jump directly to…”

An in depth analysis can still miss possible logical conclusions. I don't think the GP is saying they skipped possible analysis, just that they fail to consider alternatives.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#86

Isn't the real issue behind all the names (diversity, inclusion, etc) about the equalizing of opportunity or at the very least, bringing certain oppressed groups (and, if you don't think certain groups are or have been oppressed or discriminated against, educate yourself) up the opportunity curve? Do we want to live in a world where you have less opportunity because of characteristics you were born with?

Making the world fair would be equal opportunity. Equity is the hot topic nowadays, which is explicitly ignoring more qualified applicants for less qualified applicants because of their race, and that's what people are upset about.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the OP is describing a case where you might meaningfully have more or less opportunity depending on your expressed stance in matters unrelated to actual job duties - viz., your expressing support for diversity ideology, as evidenced in a "diversity impact statement". So this is basically compelled speech and/or discrimination based on ideology, which is a very real kind of oppression.

Oh, maybe I misinterpreted. I have much less interest in that argument given that there are tons of pre-existing ideologies that could be discriminated against for a job. Right? If your ideology is "I think it's important to work as little as possible to maintain a job." I'd assume many employers would discriminate against hiring someone with that ideology, no? Apologies if I'm missing the key point again.

> Oh, maybe I misinterpreted.

No worries. It's easy to misinterpret these things because there are facets of job performance in this area that wouldn't be out of place at all in a "diversity impact statement" (such as a proven, developed ability to teach and work with people from a high variety of backgrounds - which doesn't even correlate all that much with political stance per se). Nevertheless, the very notion of requiring that kind of statement is sure to introduce a sort of very real bias in hiring.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#88
I am absolutely all in for equality, but definitely strongly against equity.

When I get HR try to shove a resume down my throat because it ticks all of their boxes despite having none of the boxes to be succesful on the job, that is when I draw the line.

I don't care if you're white, black, purple or green, and whether you fuck men, women, all of them or none of them is none of my business. At the end of the day I want the most qualified to get the position when I interview, you either know your stuff or you don't.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#89
The whole blog is like this; it's all sort of comically smug "everybody else in the entire world is wrong, and here is a 7-point axiomatic derivation proving it"†, much of it depending on specific definitions of specific words. Check-mate, atheists!

There are lots of good, sharp, critical things to say about the DEI movement, most especially "institutional" DEI, but you can't meaningfully say them when you write with this tone, can you? Who's going to take you seriously? Like, at a bare minimum, you have to acknowledge (or take the trouble to refute) the concerns that animate your opposition.

The author isn't a rando! This is a tenured professor of philosophy at a major university. You know, writing like a high school sophomore on a message board.

I highly recommend his carefully reasoned, inescapable argument that everyone has the right to own a gun for a perfect example of the form.

Re: Who cares about diversity?

#90
I recently watched an interesting discussion on the legality of diversity statement requirements. [1] There's a lot of nuance here, and the two speakers have different opinions on the matter.

One believes that diversity statement requirements can be done properly and we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater by banning diversity statement requirements.

The other speaker suggests these are analogous to requirements that a candidate talk about how they support the government's ongoing war effort, and catalog all they have done in furtherance of it.

1: https://reason.com/volokh/2022/08/30/do-university-diversity...

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