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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#81

Post by wizofaus »

Ekaros wrote: post #73
wizofaus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say Alzheimer's is essentially the inability to lay down memories that can be recalled beyond a very short period of time (in extreme cases, seconds). But once your brain can no longer store ANY recallable memories, you're unconscious.

Can you react to stimuli without being able to store any recallable memories? At least somewhat more complex stimuli than pain or bright light.

Sure, I would say it happens quite a lot (certainly while we're infants).

My only point is that to be conscious is tautologically to know that one is conscious. And knowledge is dependent on having (= being able to recall) a memory of something. Yes, colloquially there are instinctual forms of 'knowledge' where you get some vague sense something must be true (despite having no information to determine one way or another), but I'd suggest that's probably a misuse of the term.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#82

Post by Ristovski »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #42
avh02 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had my first full anesthesia experience as an adult - emergency but minor surgery, so not an extremely scary ordeal. I was very distinctly trying to pay attention to the process of going under, as in: do i feel it fade? etc. I remember doing the countdown thing and also trying to see if i could notice it at all like going to sleep. but, just like an off switch, no state change, just a full stop (but without somethi…

When I was a kid this once happened to me by just sleeping. I closed my eyes at night, opened them seemingly immediately and it was morning, feeling absolutely rested. It was pretty weird and amazing, and never happened again. I haven't heard anyone reporting something like this, but I'm almost sure it must have happened to other people too.

A similar thing once happened to me as a kid, albeit with a twist. I counted down from 10 quite slowly and opened my eyes once I reached 0 - only for it to be morning.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#83

Post by prmph »

kahnclusions wrote: post #46

As far as we can tell consciousness is an emergent phenomenon of the physical processes of the brain, and when you interrupt those processes, you don’t form new memories, and when you wake up it’s as if you time travelled to that point. Any other explanation involves a lot of hand-waving and vast unfounded assumptions that contradict the known laws of physics. My question for those cases is: how does it work? For exa…

The most interesting things may not be fully describable in mathematically rigorous terms; that doesn’t mean they don’t exist or don’t have structure.

For example, nutrition is a very complex thing to design proper studies for, and there is nothing like perfectly controlling for all variables. Yet, this situation does not change the basic fact that our diet affects our health.

There’s phenomena that’s beyond our math, science, and logic.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#84

Post by weregiraffe »

avh02 wrote: post #29
porker wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I found it incredibly disorientating, even after the event because time has passed and I have no awareness of it.

I had my first full anesthesia experience as an adult - emergency but minor surgery, so not an extremely scary ordeal. I was very distinctly trying to pay attention to the process of going under, as in: do i feel it fade? etc. I remember doing the countdown thing and also trying to see if i could notice it at all like going to sleep. but, just like an off switch, no state change, just a full stop (but without somethi…

>But as another comment put it, I can only imagine death being similar (if instant/unexpected/while sleeping/etc), just without the coming back. Which is scarier.

You can't imagine it, because it lacks time. There's nothing to imagine.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#85

Post by seibelj »

keithwhor wrote: post #12
seibelj wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a night owl… sleeping can be hard. If I’m lying in bed with my eyes closed and start wondering about what happens when you sleep, what dreams are, what happens if you die in your sleep… makes you not able to sleep

I used to be the same way — do you drink caffeine after 4PM? I was convinced I was a night owl and my most productive hours were 10PM until 2AM. That was until, at suggestion of my partner, I stopped drinking caffeine in the late afternoon and evening. As long as I do that I have no problem getting to sleep consistently and easily. May not be the case for you but for my entire 20s I simply didn’t realize how much caf…

I’ve been a night owl since I was a small child. My dad is also one. No caffeine after 2pm.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#86

Post by [deleted] »

lend000 wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Not taking one position or the other, but you can't make any conclusions about whether a separate consciousness exists from anesthesia, only that no memories were formed that can be accessed by that consciousness (even if it did experience qualia during that time).

[deleted]

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#87

Post by simonh »

lend000 wrote: post #16
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Not taking one position or the other, but you can't make any conclusions about whether a separate consciousness exists from anesthesia, only that no memories were formed that can be accessed by that consciousness (even if it did experience qualia during that time).

Understood, but I don't think that view is consistent with the evidence we have of brain activity during conscious and unconscious states, and memory formation.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#88

Post by tmountain »

feet wrote: post #80
xenadu02 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're close to the fundamental problem here but don't go far enough. All one needs to do is look at Oliver Sack's books to understand that either of these must be true: 1. Consciousness is a physical system. This is the simplest explanation and accounts for all observed phenomenon. 2. Consciousness (or "soul") is metaphysical but is such a blank slate or so dependent on the physical state of the brain that we can ex…

Isn't there some rule that we should usually go with the simplest explanation that covers all bases? Why even go beyond 1? It feels like people want there to be something more

Occam's razor. In philosophy, a razor is a principle or rule of thumb that allows one to eliminate ("shave off") unlikely explanations for a phenomenon, or avoid unnecessary actions. In essence, they provide guardrails to keep discussions centered within the realm of reason when venturing to the edge of our knowledge and beyond.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#90

Post by causi »

Under Anesthesia, Where Do Our Minds Go?

The article itself is good but that title, wow. Our minds don't "go" anywhere any more than the illumination goes somewhere when you snuff a candle. Just as the flame isn't high enough to produce significant light your brain activity isn't high enough to produce coherent thought.

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