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Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is any sort of scientific consensus that i) there is a point where its too warm for earth to be habitable for humans or ii) there is a massive feedback loop threshold.

There is certainly a point past which the Earth cannot support the same order of magnitude of humans, at similar technology levels. It's hard to argue that there are no bad feedback loops once temperature gets higher. We know of several huge methane stores that are temperature dependent, we know how ice and clouds work as temperature rises, etc. We're gambling 90-100% of humanity on the critical points not being reac…

I have this mental image of the scene from Erik The Viking where the island is sinking into the sea, but everyone on the island is denying anything is happening.

It's heartbreaking. We had everything and we pissed it away.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#82
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is certainly a point past which the Earth cannot support the same order of magnitude of humans, at similar technology levels. It's hard to argue that there are no bad feedback loops once temperature gets higher. We know of several huge methane stores that are temperature dependent, we know how ice and clouds work as temperature rises, etc. We're gambling 90-100% of humanity on the critical points not being reac…

I have this mental image of the scene from Erik The Viking where the island is sinking into the sea, but everyone on the island is denying anything is happening. It's heartbreaking. We had everything and we pissed it away.

And continue to worry about scientific consensus as if the mechanisms for piles of known positive feedback mechanisms aren't numerous and straightforward. The comment a few up is textbook 90s fossil fuel company except having ceded ground on the trivial, trivial reality that climate change exists at all.

Because there's certainly *not* scientific consensus that there are negative (technical sense) feedback loops that continue to stabilize the climate (well enough) far away from the steady state climate and a lot of good reason to think that they will fail to keep up.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The site is fine. Cloudflare's DNS is blocked by it, use another provider. For more context: https://community.cloudflare.com/t/archive-today-does-not-re...

This is the craziest/coolest denial of service I’ve seen in a while. Intentionally poisoning your own DNS record is next level.

The reason for it may be less appealing. According to Cloudflare[1]:

> The archive.is owner has explained that he returns bad results to us because we don’t pass along the EDNS subnet information. This information leaks information about a requester’s IP and, in turn, sacrifices the privacy of users.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#84
post #7

Hah, that article is a mess of temperature standards as well as mixing up delta Fahrenheit to delta Celsius vs Fahrenheit to Celsius equivalents (delta 18 F is delta 10 C, whereas the temperature 18 F is -7.78 C). It seems they got it all right, better than some other reports where they mix up the 2. Imagine seeing "It's 18 degrees warmer in Fahrenheit, (that's -7.78 degrees warmer in Celcius)."

The funny thing is that converting changes in temperature is even easier than converting actual temperature. There's no offset to apply, which has the nice side effect that the signs are never different.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're hearing "massive swings" and jumping to the conclusion that 5 std dev is somehow normal-ish behavior for the region. It's not. At all. By definition.

That’s absolutely right. But as the article itself says, we don’t know if this is the start of some trend or if this is a never previously observed fluke. Climate change is about regression to a mean that is itself higher than the previous mean. But with or without human contribution, weather events are still going to regress to a mean.

> But as the article itself says, we don’t know if this is the start of some trend or if this is a never previously observed fluke.

...That's not how statistics works.

A 2 sigma deviation can be a never previously observed fluke. A 5 sigma variation ... that means that the model is wrong. Observing a 5 sigma variation means that you need to stop, and consider why your model is incorrect.

> Climate change is about regression to a mean that is itself higher than the previous mean.

That's what we've been assuming, but this result upends that assumption.

We talk about a new mean that's 5F higher than the old mean. But an event that's 70F higher than the current mean is also 65F above the the 'new' mean. And that throws out the possibility what we're talking about is a new mean that's higher than the old mean with the same standard deviation.

The brave new world we're walking into doesn't just have a higher average temperature, it also has a significantly higher standard deviation.

And this is potentially catastrophic. If Antarctica is, on average, 5F warmer, but is not prone to significant deviations, then Antarctica stays frozen. This is our old model; maybe the new extremes are a little bit more extreme, but Antarctica is still so cold and the rare high temperature events are mild enough that it's still gonna be super cold, and all the ice that's held up in the Antarctic ice sheets stay there. But if we have wild swings like this one, then our old models are quite simply wrong. We now need to start to consider models where Antarctica melts, and now we need to consider a 190 foot increase in sea level over the next century.

AFAIK that means that a majority of Earth's population will be displaced. NYC, London, Tokyo, Florida, Rio, all gone.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#86
post #4

https://archive.is/WHpV1

This site can't provide a secure connection archive.is uses an unsupported protocol. ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH root@thinkpad:~# openssl s_client -showcerts -connect archive.is:443 CONNECTED(00000003) 140330990556480:error:14094410:SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:sslv3 alert handshake failure:../ssl/record/rec_layer_s3.c:1543:SSL alert number 40 --- no peer certificate available --- No client certificate CA name…

Something's wrong between your computer and the site. It's fine here.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#87
post #55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probability that an observation is beyond 5 standard deviations is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chebyshev's_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy_distribution

An observation bound below by 5 standard deviations is at best a one in a million on a standard normal distribution.

Yes, for a normal, which is known to have extremely thin tails (decaying with a squared exponential!). Chebyshev's bound holds for any possible distribution (with finite variance).

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#88
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the observed variable is “the mean temperature in a given day”, 4% can be expected to occur relatively frequently. Anyway until we know the probability distribution, and my intuition says that it’s definitely not Normal for wide periods of time, we can’t say if it’s significant or not.

Five standard deviations is not four percent, it is in the 1 in 3 Million range.

Yes, for a normal, which is known to have extremely thin tails (decaying with a squared exponential!). Chebyshev's bound holds for any possible distribution (with finite variance).

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#89
post #87
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An observation bound below by 5 standard deviations is at best a one in a million on a standard normal distribution.

Yes, for a normal, which is known to have extremely thin tails (decaying with a squared exponential!). Chebyshev's bound holds for any possible distribution (with finite variance).

Not squared exponential (that's just an exponential), but exponential of a square, even. Anyway.

Re: Eastern Antarctica sees record temperatures 70 degrees above normal

#90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s absolutely right. But as the article itself says, we don’t know if this is the start of some trend or if this is a never previously observed fluke. Climate change is about regression to a mean that is itself higher than the previous mean. But with or without human contribution, weather events are still going to regress to a mean.

> But as the article itself says, we don’t know if this is the start of some trend or if this is a never previously observed fluke. ...That's not how statistics works. A 2 sigma deviation can be a never previously observed fluke. A 5 sigma variation ... that means that the model is wrong . Observing a 5 sigma variation means that you need to stop, and consider why your model is incorrect. > Climate change is about re…

I agree that if you don't like getting 5 sigma events against your model's forecast, sure, change your model.

But I'm curious whether the model in question is even looking at 5-day events, or more at monthly/annual/decadal averages. This may not be 5 sigma at all at those timescales.

And, it sure looks like it's not headed to a new mean 5 degrees Fahrenheit higher: https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/antarctica/vostok-statio...

Please don't get me wrong. Human-generated greenhouse gas emission increase and carbonization of the planet's atmosphere are big problems, that will contribute to overall global temperature average rises. It's just that this is not that.

This is more like when the CPU spikes momentarily by +50% on your production observability monitors. Panicky teams might react to it. Mature teams might see it as transient cloud (heh) behavior and know not to even bother alerting. Immature teams will tune it out as alert fatigue.

We don't want to give the whole planet alert fatigue about extreme weather events. We want to focus on reducing the long run change to global average temperature.

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