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/tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

tatatap.com

81–90 of 124 posts

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#81

There's some very cool ideas here, I like the approach it's taking with composability, it's an interesting project. And the integration into other systems seems kind of inspired in some ways, getting a summary email or doing stuff with text messages seems gimmicky in theory but I bet it actually feels great and ends up being useful in practice. Probably a lesson there about the benefits of integrating with multiple s…

I hear you. What guarantees about how it works do you have in mind? You may be interested in just the parsing component of /tap, which is open source https://github.com/tatatap-com/sowhat

I did see the parsing component, and it looks good. My worry though is that even with the parsing format being good, you're not really selling this as a parser; it doesn't seem like the text format is the most exciting part of this.

With notes in specific, because they're such an important part of my life, I'm taking a very long-term view; what still exists after 15 years? Everything else is kind of ethereal and doesn't matter because I can't really invest into building systems around something that will disappear suddenly. So I look at /tap through that lens: what parts of this still exist if tomorrow the developer either gets bough by Google or joins an Amish community?

It seems like it's only the parser? Not the SMS stuff, not the visualization or searching, not emailing, not how the ledger works, not the API. And again, it seems like a good parser, but I already have some decent parsers I use for taking notes in text format, that's a somewhat crowded space that's hard to compete in.

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I may not be the kind of customer you are trying to target, and that's fine, but I'll try to explain more clearly what I mean.

When I think back to OneNote, I built systems around something that stopped working for me, and then those systems all had to be rebuilt from scratch. It was a huge loss of time investment that outweighed any monetary investment. If I'm thinking long-term about my notes, I'm paying $7 for... basically just document storage, I can't really build around the API or the SMS or email integration, because that stuff doesn't exist in a permanent form, it's all ethereal and it all goes away if you join Google. In some ways it's even worse than that, because the focus on SMS integration means I'm likely to get heavily reliant on SMS for notetaking, which is a huge issue if I ever need to self-host anything and realize suddenly that building apps around SMS handling is very difficult. I've now kind of accidentally made my life much harder.

But I compare that situation to something like Matrix/Wallabag, apps where prices for official hosting are basically in the same neighborhood as /tap and that cost me very similar amounts of money to subscribe to:

- I'm getting a lower barrier of entry that means I can start relying on the project before I ever learn anything about hosting.

- I'm getting the chance to build infrastructure around an actively supported piece of tech, where I don't have to solve all of my own problems.

- I'm paying for short-term uptime guarantees.

- I'm paying to have to think less about security.

- I'm paying to not have to think about the horror of integrating with SMS/Email notifications

In theory, I would be paying for the same stuff in /tap, but in practice I'm not because the SMS features and integrations and stuff don't actually exist in the long-term. Everything except the parsing format is ethereal and is going to go away.

So I have a short-term uptime guarantee from /tap that's higher than my own would be, at the cost of needing to redo my entire infrastructure and needing to figure out hosting from scratch in the future. I can think less about security right now, at the cost of needing to build my own product some day where all of those security problems will come back in full-force even worse. I have a lower barrier of entry now, but later on I have to drop everything and start from scratch, and I won't be able to really do anything with my notes when that happens other than parse them until I rebuild my own solutions for stuff like repeated tasks. I can build infrastructure around an actively supported tech stack, except that tech might all vanish one day, so I can't really rely on any infrastructure that I build, or on any other service that relies on /tap.

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It's difficult to put into words, but I want to feel like I am paying for a service, not for a technology. With Matrix/Wallabag/insert-whatever, I get to temporarily not think about problems that are annoying, but I could think about them if I needed to. If something goes wrong, I could even pay another person to think about them and keep putting that problem off. And that means the service is just making my life easier, I'm just paying for people to solve problems for me and to deal with things I don't want to deal with. I'm paying for someone else to help me use a piece of technology.

In contrast, with /tap, I'm paying for access to that technology just as much as I'm paying for any service, which far from solving problems actually introduces problems in my life, because it would add new API requirements for whatever custom solution I'll need to eventually build when the company pivots or gets bought out or dies.

In a weird way, because notes are a long-term investment, the exclusivity around the tech means the value proposition for me as a user is much lower than the value proposition from more open applications, because kind of summing up everything above, a concept that encapsulates a lot of these ideas is that I'm paying for peace of mind, I'm paying to have someone take my worries away and to stress about stuff like hosting for me. And /tap's approach to peace of mind seems to be "don't worry, you can rebuild everything yourself if something goes wrong." The only way I'd get peace of mind out of that is if I paid you for hosting and then only used the REST API and only after reimplementing the entire REST API myself locally. But it's not worth $7 a month for me to do that, I want solutions that I don't have to plan around a bunch, I want solutions that don't give me anxiety when I think about the future. Parsing is a very small part of that, I'm not really worried that no one would be able to figure out how to parse a documented text format if /tap went down, I'm worried about everything else.

Again, I am probably not your ideal customer, so I think take that with a grain of salt. But my perspective is that I want a service that makes me feel more confident about the long-term, not less. I feel like if I was setting up auto-responders or integrating Tasker with my SMS app on my phone around /tap -- I don't think I'd feel confident about any of those systems, /tap seems to be encouraging me to build some very long-term fragile solutions/integrations for my notetaking setup.

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#82
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure, just seeing tiddlywiki for the first time now. Two of the main goals of /tap are having your notes meet you where you are: sms, email, API and introducing elements that allow you to consolidate other applications into tap: beans, formulas, events etc.

I see you are the creator of /tap? Great! I think the multi modal goal is definitely cool and could be really useful. For tiddlywiki, I have to host my own server and only access to it is via a browser. While I have access everywhere this way, it's sometimes slow on mobile phones. FYI, I signed up but login doesn't seem to work for me. Does nothing. I had to verify my email but got a 'oops try again' message with the…

Email me at hello [at] tatatap.com and I will sort it out for you.

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#83
post #43

I follow an unwritten rule that I will always congratulate anyone on shipping anything. Shipping anything is hard and deserves praise, so congratulations! Unfortunately I'm also realizing that I got to a point in life where I just roll my eyes when I see yet another note-taking, or to-do app, or any other spin on the same trivial problem that we solved 1000 years ago and now are just beating a dead horse, almost like…

The note taking space is interesting to me. You say the problem is solved, and yet, every time I see a new app in this space, I perk up because I hope that maybe this is the one that will resonate/work for me. Note taking is a deeply personal process. Physical notebooks as a medium are infinitely flexible but apps are not. This means that 100 different people writing notes on paper might be doing so in 100 different…

> Note taking is a deeply personal process.

Yes. All the more reason not to encumber it with large dependencies, proprietary code, or fragile, transient technologies.

I switched to using git as a repository of structured notes. The schema is simple. I can pull notes to various machines, I can archive the repository, I can track changes.

"Everything should be as simple as possible and no simpler." -- attributed to a rather good physicist.

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#85
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The note taking space is interesting to me. You say the problem is solved, and yet, every time I see a new app in this space, I perk up because I hope that maybe this is the one that will resonate/work for me. Note taking is a deeply personal process. Physical notebooks as a medium are infinitely flexible but apps are not. This means that 100 different people writing notes on paper might be doing so in 100 different…

> Note taking is a deeply personal process. Yes. All the more reason not to encumber it with large dependencies, proprietary code, or fragile, transient technologies. I switched to using git as a repository of structured notes. The schema is simple. I can pull notes to various machines, I can archive the repository, I can track changes. "Everything should be as simple as possible and no simpler." -- attributed to a r…

It depends on the definition of a simple thing. Is your system so simple that you could teach your parents how to use it?

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#86

I follow an unwritten rule that I will always congratulate anyone on shipping anything. Shipping anything is hard and deserves praise, so congratulations! Unfortunately I'm also realizing that I got to a point in life where I just roll my eyes when I see yet another note-taking, or to-do app, or any other spin on the same trivial problem that we solved 1000 years ago and now are just beating a dead horse, almost like…

> I feel like everyone's just trying to make a buck with their tiny spin on the same idea. Lol, exactly. My first thought after seeing the landing page was "there has to be a Pricing link in the top right menu". From a rational perspective, there's absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to get financial reward for their work. But subconsciously there's something about it that really annoys me, I'm not sure what…

I know what it is, it's the idea that someone can write code once, and someone else should pay to maintain it forever using a subscription model. The craziness of this space is that people think that maintaining a tiny footprint on a server somewhere is somehow worth $10 a month boggles my mind. You can buy access to most basic file-syncing services for that much. Why isn't a note-taking app, even a very advanced one, not just a simple one-time payment? If you want to haggle about paying for new versions, sure, but most of the "services" space is full of rent-seeking people, which is probably the thing that rubs you the wrong way.

Another way of thinking about it: Most MMORPGs that charge monthly fees are around $10 a month too, does a note-taking app somehow involve as much work as maintaining the massive-infrastructure and maintenance nightmare of running a MMORPG? If not, why is the pricing so similar?

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note taking is a deeply personal process. Yes. All the more reason not to encumber it with large dependencies, proprietary code, or fragile, transient technologies. I switched to using git as a repository of structured notes. The schema is simple. I can pull notes to various machines, I can archive the repository, I can track changes. "Everything should be as simple as possible and no simpler." -- attributed to a r…

It depends on the definition of a simple thing. Is your system so simple that you could teach your parents how to use it?

The process requires typing a note using the keyboard and then pushing the new/revised text to git. Git works on every computer and CPU architecture that I have used... and I have used a wider variety than most.

If one's parents are the acceptance testers for usability... I think I might recommend that they use something that they understand fully. That might be git, but it might also be a Moleskin notebook and an ink or graphite writing instrument. ^_^

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#88
post #58

You might be already be aware of this but you might want to take into account the fact that many countries do not use SMS at all, first because it's non-free/expensive and secondly because people have just grown used to not even realize it's an option. Here in South America it's ALL Whatssapp, I don't think I've ever sent an SMS in 10 years.

Noted. FWIW SMS is not a requirement to use /tap. And I would love to build more messaging integrations. email me with suggestions!

Whatsapp has a business API pretty much exactly for stuff like this.

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#89
post #47

I follow an unwritten rule that I will always congratulate anyone on shipping anything. Shipping anything is hard and deserves praise, so congratulations! Unfortunately I'm also realizing that I got to a point in life where I just roll my eyes when I see yet another note-taking, or to-do app, or any other spin on the same trivial problem that we solved 1000 years ago and now are just beating a dead horse, almost like…

Congratulations are indeed due, so ditto there. I have to say I have the same response - dammit, not another one - but I'm rather more interested in our complete fascination with these tools. Like - I have my note taking / knowledge stuff pretty much nailed [+] but STILL I always find myself clicking through on posts like this. Like many others on HN, I'm absolutely, unbearably, totally addicted to considering and re…

I second TickTick. I've used tens of to-do apps and it resonated with me the most.

Re: /tap – Powerful and customizable note-taking system

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the definition of a simple thing. Is your system so simple that you could teach your parents how to use it?

The process requires typing a note using the keyboard and then pushing the new/revised text to git. Git works on every computer and CPU architecture that I have used... and I have used a wider variety than most. If one's parents are the acceptance testers for usability... I think I might recommend that they use something that they understand fully. That might be git, but it might also be a Moleskin notebook and an in…

Ok I agree, different types of people have different kinds of systems that are the most simple for them. But in that case, is it also possible that for some people the most simple system has a lot of large dependencies? (Maybe people who are young, used to writing by typing on a smartphone, not used to pen and paper, and never used git or a command line)
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