The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea • Hacker News Board

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#81

Post by dpark » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

ssharp wrote: post #73

dpark wrote: post #64

Yes, a good designer should be able to do more than draw things in photoshop. A good designer should be able to make things aesthetically pleasing, but more importantly functional. If they haven't even a basic grasp of HTML/CSS, for example, how can they pretend to design functional interfaces in HTML/CSS? A designer who can only mock things up in photoshop is not a designer, but an artist, and probably a poor artist…

"Yes, a good designer should be able to do more than draw things in photoshop. A good designer should be able to make things aesthetically pleasing, but more importantly functional. If they haven't even a basic grasp of HTML/CSS, for example, how can they pretend to design functional interfaces in HTML/CSS? A designer who can only mock things up in photoshop is not a designer, but an artist, and probably a poor artis…

If all someone knows is "how a web page functions (from a UX perspective)", then they don't actually know anything meaningful. If all they understand is that a link is clickable and that a web page is sent over the Internet, then they don't understand nearly enough to be telling someone else what to implement. HTML and CSS are relatively simple. A decent web designer should be able to build a mockup using them.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#82

Post by talmand » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 8:14 PM UTC

leon_ wrote: post #65

cesarsalazar12 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! HTML is way different from a programming language. HTML is a language that describes structure, not logic. The web is all about structuring information in a way people can make sense out of it. Any web designer that is not able to use a language to provide structure, is not at the to of their profession.

So writing something in word is programming too?

Depends on how you look at it. Writing HTML is more like using Word in a formatting mode where you can see the code that's normally behind the scenes. The method you are referring to is similar to using a WYSIWYG editor. Plus it depends on how you define what "code" means.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#83

Post by lucisferre » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 9:20 PM UTC

Markup and CSS are not code, they are tools to do design on the web, they are just not clicky-clicky. By not using them you are just drawing pretty pictures if you don't fully grok the limitations of the tool that will, in the end, actually be used to design the site.

Designers for the web who don't understand how to at the very least manipulate and tweak markup and CSS are at least somewhat fooling themselves and the people they work for/with. This is ok as long as you accept this in the end and begin to make the effort to learn something new that will improve your ability to design for the web. Bitching about professionalism won't change this fact.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#84

Post by lucisferre » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

kiiski wrote: post #52

ThomPete wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useless might be a tad strong. How many sites can you really change the font size? Unless of course you mean through the browser.

Why would they implement a feature that's in every browser anyway? They should just design the site so that changing the font size through the browser works.

I believe his point was that a web design should be resilient to the fact that users can do this with their browsers. Among other things web specific I assume. That seemed pretty obvious to me anyways.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#85

Post by schrijver » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #82

leon_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So writing something in word is programming too?

Depends on how you look at it. Writing HTML is more like using Word in a formatting mode where you can see the code that's normally behind the scenes. The method you are referring to is similar to using a WYSIWYG editor. Plus it depends on how you define what "code" means.

Coming at this as a designer who learned to code in both senses of the word, I have to disagree with the sentiment that HTML/CSS is easy.

Sure, the principle is rather straightforward, but writing CSS is tedious and error-prone and the HTML/CSS is combination is modeled on single column text based layouts… it’s shocking to find out there’s no built in support for columns and no way to vertically align an element, for example.

I spent a month doing CSS until I had learned to implement the kind of grid I could knock together in 5 minutes in InDesign… very unsatisfying… Whereas later I spent a month learning Python and felt like I made much more progress, deepening my understanding of the digital medium, improving my “procedural literacy” and shaping my views about possible interactions.

So programming logic is actually more easy and fun for me—though that doesn’t take away from the fact that you need CSS knowledge to make a design work…

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#86

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:10 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #74

folletto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigeon-holing? Quite the opposite. I'm making the difference between "should" and "could". That's exactly because not everyone is a specialist, neither I am, but at the same time not everyone is a generalist! :) Exactly like I'm saying in the middle of the article, "you have to know this stuff", but you don't have to know also how this stuff is done, you can, of course. But it's not a must. :) It's always sad for me…

It's the "Theory of Multiple Intelligences" bit that gave me the impression of pigeon-holing. And the paragraph preceding it where you go on about the typical high-school stereotypes. And the rest of the article is built on the premise of a dichotomy where creativity is separate from technical ability... the whole "left brain/right brain" idea. It's bunk! I think the split is actually in designer/front-end developer.…

Again, I agree. The whole article isn't built on that dichotomy. It's just a sequence from a simple perspective to a more complex perspective, and actually ends saying that it's better if you are willing to expand your view, exactly like you are saying. :)

~

On the second part of your comment, well, you are talking about "web designer" specifically, and with a very specific definition of it as well. If that's your definition, then yes, he have to do that. But er, it looks more like a Frontend Developer to me, and I never heard of a "Concept Artist". ;) However, it's a matter of terminology here, and there's surely some confusion about it. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#87

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:14 PM UTC

knieveltech wrote: post #34

folletto wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably you never met amazing designers that can't even put a "." at the end of their sentences. People are different, with different mind, and intelligences. Forcing such a designer to "code" is just going to destroy his skillset, that otherwise would be of great use in a good and collaborative team. :)

If someone has to be forced to learn/use the underlying medium then there's nothing to destroy, they don't have the skillset to to do the job to begin with and they should probably just stick to doing print layout. Having worked with designers ranging in skills from pure photoshop all the way to writes app code in addition to markup, CSS and javascript, in my experience a designer that doesn't have a solid understand…

I worked with lots of excellent designers that aren't able to write a single line of code. And still paired in a good team with a developer, they did marvels. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#88

Post by saraid216 » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:22 PM UTC

I have to agree with this article.

Quite frankly, it's the developer's job to say, "This isn't possible." It's the developer's job to know where the cutting edge is, and to take the time to think about whether or not a completely new design idea ends up being possible to implement after all. If you force the designer to take on this role, it reduces the developer to a code monkey--your job is to ensure robustness--and forces the designer to take on two roles.

I tell my designers to ask for magic and to accept it when I say I can't do this. Their job is to know what affordances are standard and why things ought to be shaped one way or another. That's their area of expertise. My area of expertise is to look at something crazy and go, "Hm, but if I did this then maybe it would work after all."

And when the best way ends up being technically difficult or impossible, we compromise.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#89

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:25 PM UTC

tel wrote: post #63

This article is plain non sequitur. The argument stated is that intelligence is multidimensional (stated as fact with caricature testimony) and therefore there exists a job aligned with one of those dimensions. Arguing that designers should code states that today optimal design is done by someone who has skill on multiple axes. So the article really just dodges the issue by defining situations alternative to argument…

That point is underlying the whole article. ;)

What it tries to clarify - and well, it might have failed, of course - is that we should stop to simplify the problem as "designers should code", because not all designers should. But yes, all designers could, and if you feel that way, or you are prepared for that, or if you want that, you can learn to code. Exactly like a developer can learn how to design.

In either case, exactly like it's wrong to say "developers should design" but it's correct to argue that a developer with design knowledge will be better at its job, it's equally wrong to say that "designers should code", but it's correct to argue that a web designer with developer knowledge will be better at its job. ;)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#90

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 11:26 PM UTC

morroccomole wrote: post #49

This position is the bullshit. This argument is made by those that are completely satisfied with their design. A little engineering knowledge on their part could never make the design even better. no, never!

I suggest you to read the About page over that article then. ;)