Live data from Hacker News

The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

intenseminimalism.com

61–70 of 104 posts

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#61
post #59

The recent article he is responding to posits that designers who code are valuable. That is true. To debunk the claims properly he would need to show that designers who code are not valuable. Instead he debunked the straw man argument "designers should code".

It certainly sounds to me that "designers should code" is the argument some are making.

http://andyrutledge.com/web-design-is-product-design.php

The graphic designer who lacks html/css skill is insufficiently prepared as a web designer. A designer who lacks competence should address that issue rather than seek refuge within embarrassing debate.

Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#62
post #61
post #59

The recent article he is responding to posits that designers who code are valuable. That is true. To debunk the claims properly he would need to show that designers who code are not valuable. Instead he debunked the straw man argument "designers should code".

It certainly sounds to me that "designers should code" is the argument some are making. http://andyrutledge.com/web-design-is-product-design.php The graphic designer who lacks html/css skill is insufficiently prepared as a web designer. A designer who lacks competence should address that issue rather than seek refuge within embarrassing debate. Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.

OK thanks, fair enough. I had thought he was responding to the latest one that made the rounds here - http://flyosity.com/application-design/if-you-can-think-desi...

Seems he wasn't though.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#63
This article is plain non sequitur.

The argument stated is that intelligence is multidimensional (stated as fact with caricature testimony) and therefore there exists a job aligned with one of those dimensions. Arguing that designers should code states that today optimal design is done by someone who has skill on multiple axes.

So the article really just dodges the issue by defining situations alternative to arguments made by Frank Chimero[1] makes and then pretending like that's a rebuttal.

He, of course, steps away from this ridiculous position toward the end by agreeing that designers could learn to code. Even suggesting it might not be a terrible idea, but this again misses the brunt of the pro argument:

Designers with strong understanding of implementation are better than those without.

I don't really want to argue that point in this comment—I'm not qualified. I just wanted to state that he never actually says anything concerning it.

[1]http://blog.frankchimero.com/post/9594863189

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#64
Yes, a good designer should be able to do more than draw things in photoshop. A good designer should be able to make things aesthetically pleasing, but more importantly functional. If they haven't even a basic grasp of HTML/CSS, for example, how can they pretend to design functional interfaces in HTML/CSS? A designer who can only mock things up in photoshop is not a designer, but an artist, and probably a poor artist at that.

> Knowing what is very different by knowing how. This takes us to the usual questions: do architects need to know how to build a skyscraper? Do car designers need to know how to build an engine? Do a movie director need to know how to act? Do a surgeon need to know how to build a peacemaker? Of course not.

Yes, architects take some structural engineering classes. They aren't engineers, but they certainly have an overlapping knowledge base. If all they could do is draw fancy buildings, then they would not be architects, but artists. Yes, car designers should know how to build an engine, not to the level of an engine designer/engineer, but to the point that they truly understand how the engine works, and not just what it does. Yes, a director needs to know how to act. They might not be the best actor, but they should know the craft, or they can't get good performances out of their actors. Yes, a surgeon who installs pacemakers should understand how they work. Do you want some guy attaching electrodes to your heart when he doesn't really understand how they work?

Good architects understand engineering. Good car designers understand engines. Good directors understand acting. Good heart surgeons understand pacemakers. And yes, good designers understand coding. When something is so closely tied to your effectiveness, you should should understand it, and that means you should understand the how as well as the what. Otherwise you will not be good at your core competencies, because you have too many gaping holes in your knowledge.

Relying on teamwork to fill the gaps in your knowledge is crap, too. If you don't have a shared vocabulary and a basic understanding of coding, how are you going to work with developers? You're going to hand them a pretty picture and tell them to implement it, and they're going to dismiss you as incompetent, because you are.

> There’s still a good point in suggesting that designers should code

This is really lame. Don't write a dozen paragraphs claiming that it's "bullshit" to say that designers should learn to code and then end by stating that it's a good idea for designers to learn to code. That makes it obvious that you're just a trolling ass. If you believe in the stance you're taking, then stick to it. Otherwise don't rant about something you don't even believe.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#65
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great deal of people do refer to HTML markup as coding. It's debatable if it should be called that but in many cases when someone says "coding" the context is HTML and CSS.

Exactly! HTML is way different from a programming language. HTML is a language that describes structure, not logic. The web is all about structuring information in a way people can make sense out of it. Any web designer that is not able to use a language to provide structure, is not at the to of their profession.

So writing something in word is programming too?

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#66
This, to me, is why at very least a web designer should know HTML/CSS. I think it's a feeling that web designers can relate with:

https://img.skitch.com/20110901-xwygj4ursxfk4hu461jjy8j21k.j...

:D

(more seriously, as adjustments need to be made those who care most about them and understand them most have the least control where they should have the most)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#67
Once again, as a web developer, I do NOT want to work with a designer who has no clue how html and css work at all.

It's insulting to say that it's not important.

Do you expect an architect to not understand how the materials they're designing with work? or what the building codes are?

Not expecting a web designer to understand how html and css work is like letting a painter tell someone who knows illustrator where to put all the lines.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#68

Once again, as a web developer, I do NOT want to work with a designer who has no clue how html and css work at all. It's insulting to say that it's not important. Do you expect an architect to not understand how the materials they're designing with work? or what the building codes are? Not expecting a web designer to understand how html and css work is like letting a painter tell someone who knows illustrator where t…

I also want to make it clear, that i did NOT list javascript or php in there at all. Nor did I say they should actually write the markup, just that they know how it works, and what is possible.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#69
His first premise is entirely invalidated by the "No empirical evidence" section on the wikipedia page :/

Begrudgingly setting that aside, I know quite a few developers who do a pretty good job reading design and UX articles. I genuinely try to better understand clean, thoughtful, and elegant user interfaces. It certainly helps architecting an app, and I think it helps organize my code. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect designers to do the same. I'd never expect a designer to fill the shoes of a full-time developer, but at the very least he/she ought to have a basic understanding of the medium for which he/she is designing, which I think involves learning some basic code.

My favorite web designers? Front-end folks who made the leap to UI/UX.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#70
Very few people argue that designers should learn how to code (as in programming). What most people argue though, is that WEB designers should be able to code, as in do the markup and CSS, their own designs. If they aren't able to code their own designs, how can they know the limitations imposed on their designs by current (and old) technologies?

A designer does not need to know how to do AJAX, jQuery animation, MVC, Ruby (or Python, or C#, or Java...), an SQL dialect, Linq queries, how to configure nginx to serve your statics, and a whole plethora of things that are important when creating a product for the web. A bunch of different people and skill sets are needed for all of those, and no one person can wear all hats. That being said, a designer that designs for the web needs to know the medium on which they're creating their artwork on. I do oil painting, and I know I need to know how to frame my canvas with a stretcher or strainer. I know that I need to prepare my canvas with animal glue, chalk, and white lead paint. I need to know my brushes and their properties also, wether they're made hair from a horse, camel, squirrel, sable, etc... I need to know a myriad of different things that are NOT actually painting. I'm also an avid strength training aficionado, for which I've learned more about the human physiology and the mechanics of lifting weights and their effect on your muscles and nervous system than I care to remember. I need to know a myriad of things that are NOT how to lift weights correctly. If I'm a web designer, and I make pretty pictures for the web, I need to know my medium. I need to know how to code my own markup and I need to know how to make my own CSS. Only then will I know the limitations and the mechanics of how a "webpage" works. Hell, creating a good creative design is a lot harder than doing the markup and CSS to be delivered to a front end developer who will probably end up changing a lot of it anyways.

The point of web designers knowing how to do their html and css, is not to remove another person from the conveyor belt of web products. The point of designers knowing how to do so, is to make sure you've got a design that works beautifully and that goes hand in hand with all the standards and best practices that the project requires. If I'm going to hire a web designer that doesn't know how to do his own html and css, I immediately think that he's not really a WEB designer and that he doesn't really care to be the best he can be as a WEB designer. Regardless of his actual skill as a designer, and of course, I won't hire him. If I get a designer that doesn't know how to do so, but wants to learn... I'll probably hire him because of his attitude and aptitude for learning. As long as he's actually good as a designer of course.

I'll just end this already too long post with one 'though': Valve (as per the latest articles going around the web) hires mostly multi skilled people, as opposed to people that are one trick ponies. The developers to my sides (no I don't work at Valve) are both completely multifaceted people with a myriad of skill sets not directly related to making software, but that we use almost every day. I consider them some of the best I've ever met. I've done system admin in linux, bsd, and windows, and I'm pretty knowledgeable in all three. I've developed software for the past 15 years. I've also been designing for the last 10. I'm pretty decent (and I've studied and practiced my ass of to get to that point) in all those fields, but you can't be bothered to learn HTML and CSS so you can make YOUR web designs better? Give me a freaking break.

Post reply on HN