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France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

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Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#81
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to understand why Turkey's case has critical geopolitical implications while Australia's doesn't really have one. I mean, just take a look at the sellers and the military alliances the buyers are in.

Australia went from an ever-closer relationship with France to ditching them, unannounced. Even if it is unwarranted, surely France reaction _is_ a major geopolitical consequence.

> Australia went from an ever-closer relationship with France to ditching them, unannounced.

This is a very disingenuous take on the issue, if not outright completely wrong, and it feels like you intentionally decided to feign ignorance regarding France's failures to deliver and even meet the contract's basic requirements.

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-...

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the strategy that was wiped ? AFAICT this is about a canceled contract and the secrecy of the negotiations. The French strategy can’t possible be based on selling submarines to a continent country bordering its atolls

See here: https://au.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/en_indopacifique_web_cle0f... The French government has openly stated that this goes beyond the canceled contract per se.

I’ll double down strategic Alliances are not built on selling a product.

This is about the not getting a heads up for the negotiation with US/UK

France knew Australia was unhappy with the deal

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> See their current hatefest against Lithuania, a country with population smaller than Shanghai. The US isn't much better. They have a history of invading of destabilising the governments of countries they don't like. > we can at least discuss them mostly freely and the authoritarian developments (governmental and distributed alike) tend to get some pushback and dissent, and the dissidents do not end up in jail or sh…

This is where different countries have different experiences. If I were a Latin American, I would be distrustful towards American power projection. But I am a Central European and our history with the U.S. is a lot better. I am not trusting them blindly, but the worst import we had from the U.S. so far was a shallow-ish pop culture, plus some of the racial nonsense that really rubs the wrong way in a different contex…

As a citizen of the UK, I'd argue that Reagan-style economics (which caused us to privatise a lot of our industry and public services in a such a way that it was effectively just a huge cash giveaway to private companies) and ridiculous copyright terms are our worst imports. You may be less effected by those kind of things in Central Europe though, and you could certainly argue, and you could certainly argue that these were our own stupidity rather than being enforced upon us.

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#84
Politics plays a significant role here:

* next year a new presidential election will take place in France

* Macron may use this contract cancellation as an opportunity to decrease France participation in NATO (technically it could leave the integrated command) as De Gaulle did before him.

This would allow him to capture more votes from the right as he would appears as a strong leader then, acting in continuity with General de Gaulle...

France can not go out of NATO, the alliance with all its drawbacks is just too important for its own defense.

This contract cancellation may end up being in the best interest of both Australia and France:

* Australia changed its mind in the course of the last years regarding what types of submarines it really needs.

* Such change of perspective affected the partnership in between both countries, which could have escalated into a costly commercial dispute where Australia would have acted in bad faith to prevent the French delivering what they did not want anymore.

There are tension in the Asia-Pacific regions in between the US and China, and France like other Europeans countries are too far from home to take a part in this.

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#85
post #45

On one hand I understand them, sudden cancelation of a contract is very unpleasant and demeaning. On the other hand, this is basically a diplomatic version of a tantrum; and powerful countries rarely respond to a tantrum by doing anything substantial. If France could get the rest of the EU behind it, then maybe. But rest of the EU looks at the problem with disinterest, given that they stood to gain nothing from the o…

France cannot get the EU behind it. On the original contract in 2016, Germany also bid and in all likelihood could have won, since Germany has far more experience with building non-nuclear subs with Diesel or fuel-cell drives. France had to start the designs almost from scratch since they offered a redesign of their nuclear subs. France desperately wanted the contract and probably only won the bidding by intentionall…

It looks like that this may also stop the EU-Australia trade deal from happening.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-australia-trade-deal-runs...

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#86
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France cannot get the EU behind it. On the original contract in 2016, Germany also bid and in all likelihood could have won, since Germany has far more experience with building non-nuclear subs with Diesel or fuel-cell drives. France had to start the designs almost from scratch since they offered a redesign of their nuclear subs. France desperately wanted the contract and probably only won the bidding by intentionall…

It looks like that this may also stop the EU-Australia trade deal from happening. https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-australia-trade-deal-runs...

Yep. France has sufficient votes on its side to veto this. EU voting rules make it easier to stop something than to get something done.

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#87
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet a paycheck on option c) The EU and (especially France and Germany) is not THAT critical of China as the US (and other countries...), and France has a big sense of national pride and no problems acting on it. Is this in any way "good"? I don't know, but realisticaly i CAN see the EU siding more with China than the US in the long run.

Well, the big thing holding up a trade deal with China right now is that China decided to sanction several MEPs and the European Parliament's human rights subcommittee for scrutinizing their forced labour camps in Xinjiang, which the European Parliament of course considered an attack on democracy itself. So if France used its sway to get the EU to align with China, that'd basically demonstrate that the French governm…

Now... i would think it would go on the line of "change through rapprochement", and even this would not be THAT far fetched. China may be a dictatorial regime, but its an dictatorial regime that values good trade deals and making money. So getting concessions on not genociding the Uigurs (at least not in a way the world can be witness) are becoming more easy.

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#88
There's a strong story here under the surface that we're not privy to. A few observations that may or may not be connected, but in macro politics, isn't everything always connected?:

First, please read this gripping tale of the evolving national defense strategies of the United States and France within the "Indo Pacific" as seen during the change in foreign policy beginning with the later Obama years and the Trump administration: https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/10/21/france-other-indo-p...

One of the tl;drs of the link above is that France sees the Indo Pacific MUCH differently from many other western powers including the USA and UK. They see themselves having a prominent authority in the Indo Pacific, key to their economic interests. To this end, they have been trying to establish an alliance of powers in the region including Australia and India.

France actually pulled off a coup earlier this decade when they closed on a major Military Air Craft sale to India with their Dassault Rafale. They have been similarly trying to establish long term military relationships with Australia and thus align the two countries' interests.

The interests that France has in the region are about safeguarding their own economic concerns and not necessarily directly address the rise of the communist party of China.

This is in stark contrast to the UK, the US and Australia who see the rise of the communist partys ambitions directly threaten their countries defense and economic concerns.

There is going to be a lot of drama after this because what just happened here is a domino fell. We're seeing the emergence of an alliance that could form part of the "Quad" in the region or something similar that may not necessarily have France as the central power directing diplomacy in the region.

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#89

One article said that the France contract was about 7 bil per diesel sub, while the new one will be 4 bil per nuclear sub. I can't imagine how you can justify 7 bil for a diesel sub. Is it possible that France though that Aus had no alternative and ran the price up?

This is the real question. From the outsider perspective, it looks like the navies and militaries of the western world are evolving towards extremely expensive, specialized high-tech "toys", produced in very low numbers, that require extensive year-long training just to get anything done. Most of which are useless against guerilla warfare insurgencies, and of doubtful utility against peer nation state competitors. Feels more like a job program than efficient armed forces.

As a deterrent against nation states, it's questionable how a billion dollar submarine would handle a swarm of thousands of suicidal drones, at a fraction of the cost of the submarine. The submarine takes years to build, a no-name Chinese factory can pump out thousands of drones in a day.

Imho, the approach of the PLA, betting more on unmanned drones backed by China's industrial capacity, is a more logical evolution of warfare.

Some links: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37062/china-conducts-t...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13284/americas-gaping-...

Re: France cancels defence meeting with UK over submarine row, sources say

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) abandon New Caledonia entirely. It's more that Caledonia could chose to leave. But that only marginaly change the issue. France has other territories in the Pacific. > b) join AUKUS as a junior partner, very painful but logical; That would be very illogical. France interests are not aligned with the USA. Also they are a nuclear country with a permanent seat on the UN security council. They will never be a junior…

> There is plenty to gain through the diplomatic route as long as you see China as an equal partner and not an inferior country. Does China see other countries as equal partners? Their Howling Wolf diplomacy seems to kick in whenever anything they dislike appears in any media. See their current hatefest against Lithuania, a country with population smaller than Shanghai. I for one am not very ready to sacrifice, e.g.…

> Does China see other countries as equal partners? Their Howling Wolf diplomacy seems to kick in whenever anything they dislike appears in any media.

China is an authoritarian country with a strategic vision which put it at odd with its closest neighbors. It's in no way an easy partner. Then again, neither is it an unreadable one nor a completely unreasonable one. What China wants is pretty clear: control of the South China sea and being the dominant soft power of the region. With this framework in mind, a lot can be achieved through negociations.

I am not saying countries should always be soft with China. Their track record record regarding human rights is worrying. I am very much in favor of using tit for tat measures regarding their distortion of competitive markets and their threats on the Chinese diaspora in Europe and the USA have to stop.

Still I am not convinced that a policy of systematic opposition and war mongering will do much good. Xi Jinping is already 68. His rule won't last eternally. It seems better to me to adopt a position of observation, containment and soft power influence than direct confrontation. I understand that Taiwan might be a victim of it which sadden me a bit but is something I am fine with from a realpolitik point of view. I consider this position better for Europe than following the USA in its opposition which I view as essentially motivated by a desire to protect the position they consider to be theirs in the international order rather than some kind of moral imperative.

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