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How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

bbc.co.uk

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Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#81

Post by beaunative »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #34
parrellel wrote: post #30

Now the question is are most of the comments on this thread examples or are they the social conditioned response of Chinese citizens abroad showing the flag. It can get pretty creepy how aggressive students - for example - get supporting their government. That flash mob behavior isn't as effective as the Russian's conflict stoking troll farms, but man does it drown out conversation, and god help you if you run into i…

Yeah I remember I had a colleague, a Chinese student, very nice person, we were going along nicely, until one day I mentioned the Dalai Lama, and he exploded. It seems like the brainwashing was very successful - he believed that the DL was a monster, killer, some demonic being aiming at the destruction of China and so on. I couldn't believe my ears. This person seemed otherwise completely normal.

I'm pretty sure this generation of Dalai Lama didn't kill anyone, he never had that kind of power, but it should be noted his previous generations have, and consistently did. It should be noted that DL was not just a religious leader, but also had the status of a king, with more power than your typical medieval dictator, who just treat people like trash, and kill, and torture, and rape whoever they want, which really shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

Although, the Catholic Church have also killed gigantic amount of people anyway, modern day priests seems to continue the habit of raping little boys regardless. Those organizations still exist, and will keep existing, so whatever, that's just this world. I'm forever a non-believer for instituionalized religion for those reasons alone.

(Also note DL never did reform Tibet to democratic society on his own, so regardless, I don't think he should be the symbol of Tibet, or as a leader. Afterall, the theme for these last centuries was that ALL despots must be abolished unless they made democratic reforms.)

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#82

Post by beaunative »

serial_dev wrote: post #46
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I remember I had a colleague, a Chinese student, very nice person, we were going along nicely, until one day I mentioned the Dalai Lama, and he exploded. It seems like the brainwashing was very successful - he believed that the DL was a monster, killer, some demonic being aiming at the destruction of China and so on. I couldn't believe my ears. This person seemed otherwise completely normal.

I don't think it's a Chinese-only thing. I had a coworker from Spain, he was very "balanced" and reasonable on all things. One day, during the 2017 Catalan independence protests and referendum, we (non-Spanish people) tried to understand the different arguments and the current situation, and someone mentioned that IF (we didn't say it was the case, we said IF) one day the overwhelming majority of Catalonia wants to l…

I think the thing is, you associate yourself with a national indentity, almost every one does. And when you do, you treat attacks or seemingly-attacks on that nation as attacks on yourself, hence the anger.

Propaganda alone would never explain it, I think we tend to treat the problems of our nation as problems of our own. It is normal to get defensive on these things.

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#83

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

beaunative wrote: post #81
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I remember I had a colleague, a Chinese student, very nice person, we were going along nicely, until one day I mentioned the Dalai Lama, and he exploded. It seems like the brainwashing was very successful - he believed that the DL was a monster, killer, some demonic being aiming at the destruction of China and so on. I couldn't believe my ears. This person seemed otherwise completely normal.

I'm pretty sure this generation of Dalai Lama didn't kill anyone, he never had that kind of power, but it should be noted his previous generations have, and consistently did. It should be noted that DL was not just a religious leader, but also had the status of a king, with more power than your typical medieval dictator, who just treat people like trash, and kill, and torture, and rape whoever they want, which really…

I agree with all but the last point: the current DL never had a chance to change anything in Tibet as he was very young when the Chinese invaded, but he was bent on to doing this in spite of opposition[0]:

> In May 1990, as a result of His Holiness’s reforms the Tibetan administration in exile was fully democratized. The Tibetan Cabinet (Kashag), which until then had been appointed by His Holiness, was dissolved along with the Tenth Assembly of the Tibetan People's Deputies (the Tibetan parliament in exile). In the same year, exiled Tibetans living in India and more than 33 other countries elected 46 members to an expanded Eleventh Tibetan Assembly on a one-person one-vote basis. That Assembly then elected the members of a new cabinet.

[0] https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily...

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#84

Post by beaunative »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #73
est wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the general tone that Lamas justifies the Buddhism invasion: Tibet was feudal, people were slaves, Lamas liberated them, now everybody is happy. One particular Lama even assassinated Langdarma, the last King of Tibet. In fact as of today the 14th DL actively suppress native Tibetan religions like Dorje Shugden. If you think Lamas were peaceful monks, check out how many "independent states" they have invaded i…

I don't think that any lama claims what you say. The assassination if Langdarma took place 1200 years ago. But all this is not the point - it's obvious that there were many bad things going on before the Chinese invasion. The Chinese never address things like "you invaded a country, you were killing people, putting them in prison, starving to death". Instead, they turn to arguments like: "But lamas were very bad, the…

I don't think the current system is so much worse. It's just not possible. DL is an actual dictator in a world without news coverage, just imagine.

That's also not just the CCP's argument, it's the same argument for most modern day states that's desposed of monarch.

Self-immolate is an act of religious fervert, it would be out of the ordinary to reason with. Generally, I think most people simply don't kill themselves like that, unless they believe there is something to be gained after death. The same reason for suicidal bombing. For people who are generally not happy or find live unbearable, they wouldn't kill themselves using those kinds of excruciating and painful methods, unless of course, they were trying to achieve something, which are most likely religious or it just doesn't make sense.

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#85

Post by est »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #79
denton-scratch wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think China would argue that it wasn't really an invasion, because Tibet had for a couple of hundred years kowtowed to the emperor, and was therefore really part of the empire. Note that if you read the testimonies of those who escaped to India, it's hardly surprising that they are uniformly critical of the occupation. A more balanced history shows that prior to the occupation, peasants were generally the property…

I cannot disagree. It was similar in Central Europe, for example in the Kingdom of Hungary the feudal system ended in 1931, some hundreds years later than in France. On the other hand, I know several people whose lives are made worse by the occupation. There was a period of some limited freedom a few decades ago, now it seems worse. As a Westerner you can't just visit Tibet and go where you want. And when you go ther…

You are just regretting the fact Tibet is no longer a large anthropology zoo that westerners can freely visit and observe, like the romance recorded by Ernst Schäfer or James Hilton in the 30s. It's mystic, primitive and slavery culture destroyed by CCP while locals are adopting welfare and education and modernizing to yet another indifferentiable boring place like an average Chinese town.

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#86

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

est wrote: post #80
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that any lama claims what you say. The assassination if Langdarma took place 1200 years ago. But all this is not the point - it's obvious that there were many bad things going on before the Chinese invasion. The Chinese never address things like "you invaded a country, you were killing people, putting them in prison, starving to death". Instead, they turn to arguments like: "But lamas were very bad, the…

> But all this is not the point Why? I thought you were arguing with your colleague whether DL is good or bad? > it's obvious that there were many bad things going on before the Chinese invasion So yeah, Tibet was in bad shape when DL reigned. That's the whole point. > so much worse that ordinary people prefer to self-immolate than to live in it If you look up news closely, you'd see that only privileged Lamas self-i…

"Privileged lamas"... Seems like they are not so privileged after all.

https://freetibet.org/about/self-immolation-protests

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#88

Post by est »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #86
est wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But all this is not the point Why? I thought you were arguing with your colleague whether DL is good or bad? > it's obvious that there were many bad things going on before the Chinese invasion So yeah, Tibet was in bad shape when DL reigned. That's the whole point. > so much worse that ordinary people prefer to self-immolate than to live in it If you look up news closely, you'd see that only privileged Lamas self-i…

"Privileged lamas"... Seems like they are not so privileged after all. https://freetibet.org/about/self-immolation-protests

just search their name you'd see they were monks.

Tibetan/Mongoila monks were a grand scheme invented by the Chinese to sterialize tribes with their no-marriable policy, for a local family only 1 or 2 boys are allowed to breed and labor, rest of siblings were all destined to be Lamas in remote places. Tibetan and Mongolia's working & total population dropped dramatically after the school of Gelug took power and no longer pose a threat to east & central asia.

The title of Dalai & Panchen were invented and installed directly by the Qing rulers (Jampalyang) to manipulate the Gelug hierarchy. 14th DL is a guy gone rogue and sold Tibet to East India Company.

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#89

Post by beaunative »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #83
beaunative wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure this generation of Dalai Lama didn't kill anyone, he never had that kind of power, but it should be noted his previous generations have, and consistently did. It should be noted that DL was not just a religious leader, but also had the status of a king, with more power than your typical medieval dictator, who just treat people like trash, and kill, and torture, and rape whoever they want, which really…

I agree with all but the last point: the current DL never had a chance to change anything in Tibet as he was very young when the Chinese invaded, but he was bent on to doing this in spite of opposition[0]: > In May 1990, as a result of His Holiness’s reforms the Tibetan administration in exile was fully democratized. The Tibetan Cabinet (Kashag), which until then had been appointed by His Holiness, was dissolved alon…

Well, monarch are not just who they are, they are also what they represent. However, I agree the current DL likely never had the chance, but I don't support that he should be granted the chance. I suspect he will reform even as an adult, had he remained a monarch. All in all, he carries the lineage then he bears and sins and glories associated with it alike.

Re: How a fake network pushes pro-China propaganda

#90

Post by approxim8ion »

parrellel wrote: post #30

Now the question is are most of the comments on this thread examples or are they the social conditioned response of Chinese citizens abroad showing the flag. It can get pretty creepy how aggressive students - for example - get supporting their government. That flash mob behavior isn't as effective as the Russian's conflict stoking troll farms, but man does it drown out conversation, and god help you if you run into i…

Yes, only Americans seem to have any degree of agency or capability of having unbiased discussions online.
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