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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#81

Post by dfadsadsf »

skrebbel wrote: post #64
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.

Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban…

LGBTQ by itself is not a threat to either Putin or Xi but what LGBTQ represents is a threat to traditional society and gender roles. The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not.

Authoritarians instinctively cling to the old roles/family and even if are not able to fully stop changes (US is amazing at exporting ideology) they try to and battle against LGBT is part of that fight.

I do not think you can directly connect authoritarian and being anti LGBQ outside of modern context - Xi, Putin or Orban views on lgbt were mainstream in US only 20-30 years ago.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#82

Post by [deleted] »

drumhead wrote: post #76
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

So Medieval. The Crown accuses you of corruption/sedition/treachery, prosecutes you then confiscates your property as a fine. A bit like Henry 7th in England during his reign. Also a bit like Putin against any oligarchs who dared to oppose him. But then I suppose its a standard pattern of behaviour to give their actions the sheen of lawfulness.

[deleted]

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#83

Post by meibo »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #81
skrebbel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban…

LGBTQ by itself is not a threat to either Putin or Xi but what LGBTQ represents is a threat to traditional society and gender roles. The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not. Authoritarians instinctively cling to the old roles/family and even if are…

What's your point? Countries with LGBT and woman's rights aren't sustainable demographically?

I think you're severely overstating the effect of LGBT people on this matter - western countries struggle with demographics, but it's not because more gay people are able to live their lives without being forced into straight relationships.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#85

Post by anm89 »

lucian1900 wrote: post #78
anm89 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no evidence either way of what this person does and they verbally advocate for violence against people they don't like to achieve political ends. So I'm going to stick with them seeming pretty facistic.

Violence isn’t inherently fascist. Capitalism uses violence against the working class to maintain profits for the owning class. Revolutions of the working class are violent, yet they end the former violence and exploitation. Fascism is violence to protect the owning class from a revolution by the working class. Suppression of capitalists after a working class revolution is also violence to prevent them from regaining…

I'll stick with that being fascism. Feel free to debate semantics all you want. It's not the important part of the argument.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#86

Post by Aeolos »

MattGaiser wrote: post #60
jwr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But not because some government official suddenly decided they should You mean like this guy, for example? https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-rele... Or the (by now, likely in the thousands) people killed by US drone attacks? I don't want to play the whataboutism card, but let's not pretend that the US is somehow exceptional here. In fact, I'd consider it one of the more troubling countries, wi…

The USA is exceptional in that that stuff does not happen to citizens within its borders.

Is that really the case?

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733

According to this ^, the police in the US is 3.5x more likely to kill civilians compared to other developed nations. (It would be interesting to find a world-wide comparison here.)

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#87

Post by lucian1900 »

anm89 wrote: post #85
lucian1900 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence isn’t inherently fascist. Capitalism uses violence against the working class to maintain profits for the owning class. Revolutions of the working class are violent, yet they end the former violence and exploitation. Fascism is violence to protect the owning class from a revolution by the working class. Suppression of capitalists after a working class revolution is also violence to prevent them from regaining…

I'll stick with that being fascism. Feel free to debate semantics all you want. It's not the important part of the argument.

The meanings of words matter if we are to understand each other. Fascism has a very specific historical meaning. Violence is a far more general concept.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#88

Post by owlmirror »

Jochim wrote: post #74
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested w…

>In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong.

Does this go beyond anecdotes and are that quantifiable occurrences that are disproportionally happening in the west vs. other countries? Because I know of many contrary anecdotes of Non-European people, living very safely and without such concerns in western countries.

In my opinion I'd tend say that modern western societies are the most safe and welcoming societies for foreigners, were you face the least amount of discrimination as an outsider.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#89

Post by smcl »

the_third_wave wrote: post #71
smcl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got

Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end s…

You're putting words in my mouth to provoke an argument, don't do that. There are plenty of very enthusiastic supporters of communism elsewhere who will be happy to have that discussion with you, I specifically said I didn't want to encourage it here.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#90

Post by anm89 »

lucian1900 wrote: post #87
anm89 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll stick with that being fascism. Feel free to debate semantics all you want. It's not the important part of the argument.

The meanings of words matter if we are to understand each other. Fascism has a very specific historical meaning. Violence is a far more general concept.

Right. And what he's talking about is fascism so I'm calling it fascism.
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