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Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

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Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#81

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

jmann99999 wrote: post #8

The problem with this post is that it cites a survey of how much Americans are willing to pay to "stop climate change." According to the article 57% are willing to pay $1 a month to "stop climate change" and 23% would pay $40 a month. As an American, in a well paying IT job, I'd pay $100 IF IT WOULD STOP CLIMATE CHANGE. However, I don't believe the $1, or $40, or $100 is going to do anything. It's far more complex th…

Right. The correct way to phrase this is probably the same as how government procurement actually works. Say, "Shall we build a large solar farm, and shall we pay to upgrade people's houses," and so on. We can pay for all this stuff out of the general fund (i.e. with debt) and raise taxes when the debt service becomes unpalatable. If you asked Americans whether they'd be willing to pay $1000/year so that every American could have heathcare, they'd probably say no too. But they'd say yes if you ask them, "Shall we have universal healthcare."

I would even argue that this might be a more honest framing than the survey. Raising taxes on the poor really isn't done, but it is at least politically viable to raise taxes on the rich from time to time. Asking someone who makes 30k whether they'd pay $500 to stop climate change isn't even relevant, because they're not the ones who would be footing the bill. The more honest question would be, "Shall we have Buffett, Gates, and Bezos pay $500 on your behalf to stop climate change?" I suspect the answer to that survey would be more positive.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#82

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

jmann99999 wrote: post #8

The problem with this post is that it cites a survey of how much Americans are willing to pay to "stop climate change." According to the article 57% are willing to pay $1 a month to "stop climate change" and 23% would pay $40 a month. As an American, in a well paying IT job, I'd pay $100 IF IT WOULD STOP CLIMATE CHANGE. However, I don't believe the $1, or $40, or $100 is going to do anything. It's far more complex th…

25% of greenhouse cases come from energy generation [1]

There's about ~144.3M taxpayers in the US [2]. If each of us paid $1200 per year, that's ~$173Bn per year [3].

Considering that a nuclear reactor only costs $9Bn to build - that's 20 per year [4]. Considering that there are only 60 in the US currently, and that's about 20% of all electricity generation, and that Nuclear isn't the most efficient form of energy generation - we should be able to replace ~7% of dirtiest energy sources per year.

~7% * 25% = ~1.75% reduction in greenhouse gases (at least). Considering that we need to cut emissions by 60% by 2050 - in 30 years, this would be ~52%, and this is definitely not the most efficient method... It's reasonable to think this is actually enough.

However - considering the average taxpayer's Federal tax bill is about ~$8k - good luck convincing them to increase that by 15%. If you make ~$150k, this would be an extra ~$4k per year in Federal taxes.

If you're in the top 1% - and you make $450k - it would be an extra ~$19k per year...

[1] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

[2] https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income....

[3] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100*12*144300000

[4] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100*12*144300000%2F900...

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#83

Post by lowbloodsugar »

I read in WaPo that the residents of the Florida condos that collapsed had refused to pay for the necessary repairs in 2019 [1]. Now many of them who made that decision are dead. If we can't make rational decisions in this situation, how can we make rational decisions about climate change.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/majority-of-fl...

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#85

Post by truenamenofame »

jdavis703 wrote: post #80
truenamenofame wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The young and poor can't afford to increase their cost of living even further. We're already burdened with debt, a shitty job market, unable to afford housing, and are having trouble even finding love and having children. I don't know how much more people expect us to sacrifice. Newsflash, this generation has fucking nothing left to give.

I don’t know where you live, but there is still more to loose. Hundreds died in the Pacific Northwest because of a recent heatwave, many more lost hours at work because businesses were closed down. Adapting to this will require households and businesses purchase air conditioners and utilities will need to update infrastructure to support increased energy demands. All that will lead to increased financial demands on p…

An expense for businesses and households that can afford it (and they'll surely write it off their taxes), is not equivalent to the impact on poor people who will be put on the street if they aren't already homeless. It's delusional to think that we'll make any impact on climate change by asking the poor and young to sacrifice what little quality of life they have left. In the end, people are going to vote for their best interests. Rich people that benefit from polluting and exploiting the environment and the poor/young have aligned incentives. Any climate change solution that doesn't include lifting up the poor and helping the young and disenfranchised is a waste of time.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#86

Post by Gibbon1 »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #42
ineiti wrote: post #13

In Switzerland there was a vote 2 weeks ago about whether we want to support a law to reduce CO2 output by our population. The law was very clear how the money would be spent: improve heating, direct pay to poor citizens, and many others. Cost: - 50 cents per gallon of gas (our gas is about 6$ per gallon) - 20$ to 100$ for a plane ticket The law was refused by 51% of Swiss citizen. What really killed me was that the…

What does direct pay to poor citizens have to do with climate change? I've always been told that the best way to do a pigovian tax is to make it revenue neutral. You collect the sin tax, but then your redistribute it based on the average level of tax collected. So someone who uses exactly the average amount of carbon sees no change in buying power. Someone who uses less than average actually sees an increase in buyin…

> I've always been told that the best way to do a pigovian tax is to make it revenue neutral. You collect the sin tax, but then your redistribute it based on the average level of tax collected.

You were lied to. The best sort of pigovian tax scheme, you collect the tax from those that can pay it. And use the money to help those that can't do what you need them to do.

AKA. Put an excise tax on new gasoline cars. Because someone that can afford a new car can certainly pay the tax. Do the same with business leasing cars. Use the money to fund programs to get poor people out of their gasoline cars and into electric ones.

A gas tax on the other hand will be perceived correctly by poor people as a rubber hose that hurts them a lot. And wealthy not at all.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#87

Post by 8note »

jdavis703 wrote: post #80
truenamenofame wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The young and poor can't afford to increase their cost of living even further. We're already burdened with debt, a shitty job market, unable to afford housing, and are having trouble even finding love and having children. I don't know how much more people expect us to sacrifice. Newsflash, this generation has fucking nothing left to give.

I don’t know where you live, but there is still more to loose. Hundreds died in the Pacific Northwest because of a recent heatwave, many more lost hours at work because businesses were closed down. Adapting to this will require households and businesses purchase air conditioners and utilities will need to update infrastructure to support increased energy demands. All that will lead to increased financial demands on p…

Yeah, poor people are paying this tax anyways. No need to impose it a second time on them

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#88

Post by 8note »

heavyset_go wrote: post #70
ineiti wrote: post #13

In Switzerland there was a vote 2 weeks ago about whether we want to support a law to reduce CO2 output by our population. The law was very clear how the money would be spent: improve heating, direct pay to poor citizens, and many others. Cost: - 50 cents per gallon of gas (our gas is about 6$ per gallon) - 20$ to 100$ for a plane ticket The law was refused by 51% of Swiss citizen. What really killed me was that the…

The young and poor are not responsible for the vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions, while the ownership class and the industries they own and control are.

The young gain a whole ton from their ancestors green house gas emissions.

Consider it an inheritance to match their quality of life.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#89

Post by darth_avocado »

Lammy wrote: post #2

What a shitty post. I guess I don't believe in climate change after all unless I also believe in public losses for privatized gains. Corporations raked in billions while wrecking the environment and I'm sure they all love framing this as an individual responsibility that we're all "failing" to do.

Well at the end of the day, corporations are feeding individual demands to make profits. If individuals demand more sustainable alternatives, I am sure the corporations will pivot.

People refuse to peel garlic themselves, and you see shelves full of pods of garlic, peeled and packed in plastic that ends up in the oceans eventually. If everyone decided tomorrow to just buy whole garlic that doesn't need packaging, corporations will supply you with that.

It's easy to blame corporations, and no doubt with their shady lobbying practices over decades should be accounted for. But individual responsibility also needs to be acknowledged.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#90

Post by heavyset_go »

8note wrote: post #88
heavyset_go wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The young and poor are not responsible for the vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions, while the ownership class and the industries they own and control are.

The young gain a whole ton from their ancestors green house gas emissions. Consider it an inheritance to match their quality of life.

Turns out that greenhouse gas emissions are proof that trickle down economics works, but it's just CO2 that trickles down and not money.
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