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Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

mleverything.substack.com

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Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#61

Post by aurea »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #42
ineiti wrote: post #13

In Switzerland there was a vote 2 weeks ago about whether we want to support a law to reduce CO2 output by our population. The law was very clear how the money would be spent: improve heating, direct pay to poor citizens, and many others. Cost: - 50 cents per gallon of gas (our gas is about 6$ per gallon) - 20$ to 100$ for a plane ticket The law was refused by 51% of Swiss citizen. What really killed me was that the…

What does direct pay to poor citizens have to do with climate change? I've always been told that the best way to do a pigovian tax is to make it revenue neutral. You collect the sin tax, but then your redistribute it based on the average level of tax collected. So someone who uses exactly the average amount of carbon sees no change in buying power. Someone who uses less than average actually sees an increase in buyin…

Actually, the plan was to redistribute part of the collected tax back to the population. You would get each year a certain amount of money. If you do not emit CO2 (i.e. do not drive, do not fly, have a clean heating system), you would actually earn money.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#63

Post by falcolas »

bko wrote: post #29
falcolas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seize all the wealth How do you propose doing that legally? Or how should the US government survive the wealthy citizen's legal assault if they were to find a loophole?

I'm not. I'm just pointing out that a massive effort requires a broad tax base. I understand everyone wants the wealthy to pay for everything, but there is quite literally not enough wealthy people in the world to begin to tackle a large problem. Everyone has to contribute

You should clarify such; it's not even remotely clear from the original post.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#64

Post by twaway »

tylerhou wrote: post #52
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does direct pay to poor citizens have to do with climate change? I've always been told that the best way to do a pigovian tax is to make it revenue neutral. You collect the sin tax, but then your redistribute it based on the average level of tax collected. So someone who uses exactly the average amount of carbon sees no change in buying power. Someone who uses less than average actually sees an increase in buyin…

Evenly distributing the revenue assumes the effect of the negative externality (climate change) is evenly distributed. But climate change tends to harm poorer people more than richer people, so it makes sense to distribute more revenue to them.

This sounds like "pork" that people put in otherwise good legislation.

Sure you can rationalize it, but this is just the game of politics.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#65

Post by truenamenofame »

ineiti wrote: post #13

In Switzerland there was a vote 2 weeks ago about whether we want to support a law to reduce CO2 output by our population. The law was very clear how the money would be spent: improve heating, direct pay to poor citizens, and many others. Cost: - 50 cents per gallon of gas (our gas is about 6$ per gallon) - 20$ to 100$ for a plane ticket The law was refused by 51% of Swiss citizen. What really killed me was that the…

The young and poor can't afford to increase their cost of living even further. We're already burdened with debt, a shitty job market, unable to afford housing, and are having trouble even finding love and having children. I don't know how much more people expect us to sacrifice. Newsflash, this generation has fucking nothing left to give.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#67

Post by lastofthemojito »

> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.

--John Steinbeck in Cannery Row (published 1945)

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#69

Post by tylerhou »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #54
tylerhou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evenly distributing the revenue assumes the effect of the negative externality (climate change) is evenly distributed. But climate change tends to harm poorer people more than richer people, so it makes sense to distribute more revenue to them.

Distributing the revenue is not about compensating for harms. It's about ensuring that you don't have a net impact on people who are using the typical amount of energy. The idea is that the tax captures the externalized costs of economic actions, like emitting carbon. Once the cost of the actions is fully priced in, it is reasoned, consumption will decrease to the optimal level given the harm done by consumption. The…

You're right that you don't need to compensate for harms with such a tax (so my first sentence was imprecise). But I also don't see what's wrong with attempting to distribute (some of) the revenue in such a way to compensate for harms.

Re: Americans aren't willing to pay to stop climate change

#70

Post by heavyset_go »

ineiti wrote: post #13

In Switzerland there was a vote 2 weeks ago about whether we want to support a law to reduce CO2 output by our population. The law was very clear how the money would be spent: improve heating, direct pay to poor citizens, and many others. Cost: - 50 cents per gallon of gas (our gas is about 6$ per gallon) - 20$ to 100$ for a plane ticket The law was refused by 51% of Swiss citizen. What really killed me was that the…

The young and poor are not responsible for the vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions, while the ownership class and the industries they own and control are.
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