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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#81

Post by throwaway3699 »

fighterpilot wrote: post #54
spoonjim wrote: post #17

I have very strong beliefs about the death penalty. I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; that anything less than execution is a grave miscarriage of justice for a crime that is so horrible the mind cannot even wrap around it. I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty... that a murderer doesn’t deserve a quick and painless death but rather a healt…

What if they did the murder because of a brain tumor messing up their impulse control ability? Humans are just complicated machines that go wrong sometimes. I do however share your emotional position and it would make me feel better to see (actual) murderers get the death penalty.

They're still a danger to society. If we start crossing into the metaphysical then we'd have to make excuses for peadophiles having 'messed up impulse control' too.

But as another comment pointed out, we do account for this.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#82

Post by bruceb »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

Simply put we have better ways to spend money than housing people for 30 years who have inflicted horrific pain on society.

I dont want to work to house, guard, and feed them.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#83

Post by Pelic4n »

bruceb wrote: post #53

Another solution is having a no doubt standard needed for the death penalty as opposed to a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. No doubt standard would require some set elements. DNA + visual recording + electronic records. I used to be anti death penalty but would be ok with it under a no doubt standard. Not for vengeance but simply society can spend the money on other things instead of spending money housing and fe…

I hope you realize that meeting that no doubt standard is going to cost a lot of money. The judiciary procedures for death penalty is extremely high, as are all the related costs for death rows & execution. In fact death penalty costs already more than life in prison: https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-pena...

And that's with the current error-prone system. Think of what it would take to ensure that your criteria are met.

So costs is simply not an argument. In fact it's a pretty bad faith one regarding what happens with private prisons and the labor of inmates subjected to slavery (read the 13th amendment if you think slavery is universally abolished). The US wouldn't have the highest rate of incarceration in the world if it didn't make money somehow.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#84

Post by baybal2 »

I, as a 15 year old kid, was detained as a suspect in an armed robbery, and murder case for a few days. Of course the case never went anywhere, and that's why I can speak with you now. Fortunately, a complete bullshit FIR, and CCTV records made the case to look too silly even for a Russian criminal system.

Every time I see an immigration officer at the border raising his eyebrows in disbelief, I instantly understand that he took a look on my criminal file.

For me, the cruel tradition of Russian police to literally grab the first bystander they come upon near the crime scene to draw as a suspect did cost months of my life spent on legal paperwork, and an immigration nightmare.

Russian citizens have no ability to have anything struck from their file, even if those lucky got a rarest %0.8 acquittal. For most unlucky people, even if the case doesn't go anywhere, they will never get the clear acquittal record, but instead have something like "case struck on procedural grounds" in their file.

Getting wrongly accused is very easy. Just be the first person to be seen near the crime scene.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#85

Post by spoonjim »

pydry wrote: post #76
spoonjim wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but death is worse, as evidenced by the vast majority of death row inmates who try to stall the process. Very few say “OK, just shoot me now.”

It's not as uncommon as you'd think: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90935&page=1 >More death-row inmates have been volunteering for their executions: Between 1993 and 2002, 75 volunteered for death, compared to the 22 consensual executions between 1977 and 1992. (Gary Gilmore, the first prisoner put to death after the Supreme Court reinstituted capital punishment in 1976, "volunteered" for his execution in 1977 b…

That’s out of over 1,300 executions since 1976.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#86

Post by goldcd »

The thing I find distasteful is the 'sanitization' of execution. I've got some ideas on how to spice it up:

Brushing away of the wrongful executions as a price of justice. Hold a monthly lottery of the population, with the random 'winner' being executed. Out of a population of millions you wouldn't even notice, but would send a message to the world that you were OK with the cost.

Secondly. Repercussions for those that assisted in wrongful convictions. Your prosecutor withheld evidence of your innocence? Police dropped evidence into your pocket? Try them for attempted murder. Boggles my mind at the lack of repercussions that seem to come out of these cases.

Finally I think you should be executed by your peers, in the same way as we tried you. At your conviction lottery is held of the population and winner is your executioner. They're given a gun/syringe/whatever and they're pointed at the prisoner. Oh, and I'd like this televised - maybe as part of the superbowl show. "Here's Charlene from Ohio, she's just celebrated her sweet-sixteenth, likes horses and reading and has selected a crossbow"

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#87

Post by blobster »

Most of the examples of innocents being convicted are from before the invention of DNA forensics. The problem is the criminal justice system which too easily gives the death penalty. We could easily reduce the probability of conviction innocents from 4% to one in a trillion by enforcing a set of requirements:

- Must have DNA evidence - Must have audio and video evidence - Must have fingerprints - Must have at least 2 witnesses

There are plenty of cases that satisfy these conditions (terrorist attacks being one of them).

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#88

Post by raverbashing »

hntroll666 wrote: post #59
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

> barbaric Sorry, but that's exactly the kind of world we live in. The world simply is barbaric no matter what we would prefer. When people mess up a little bit, we put them through a process that, despite its massive inadequacy, is intended to rehabilitate them so that they can return to society. The death penalty is for when someone commits a crime so severe that they cannot ever return to society. If you are not a…

This right here

I think arguing for its abolition on the basis of "the system is bad" is completely valid

> familiar with the details of truly horrendous crimes

And this still happens. And I agree, society is sometimes too tolerant with people who have no business in being in it (which, true, is a much smaller percentage of people on death row)

But don't expect the legal system to try to improve how many innocents they convict.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#89

Post by piva00 »

bruceb wrote: post #75
capableweb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

The US isn't that prudish compared to many nations.

Yeah but compared to similar nations in culture and wealth it's pretty much an outlier.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#90

Post by cies »

capableweb wrote: post #65
cies wrote: post #36

This is very US-centric. > at least 4% of people on death row are innocent. I expect in Scandinavia these numbers are different. But they dont have death penalty. From the news I learn that US cops also kill innocent people in the street. And it's military wages illegal wars killing 100s of 1000s overseas. I think the US has a weird relation with violence. The death penalty and how it uses it is merely a symptom.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

Also mingling in politics. US has been in the business of that for decades. The whole of Central and South America has had a couple of regime changes dictated by the US.

Then Russia supposedly bought some Facebook ads or something for a US election years ago, and I still need to read about it in the news every week.

Conclusion: US also has a huge double measurement problem.

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