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When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

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Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#81
> Is the person a writer for New Yorker? Is The Drunken Canal somehow related to the New Yorker? What is The Drunken Canal? How was she “regretting” something at that point in time? Vocally or otherwise? What publication was being stored in those unmarked white newspaper boxes? Wait, is The Drunken Canal a publication?

I generally agree with his thesis, but:

Scoring articles with the Hemingway app is a red herring that distracts from the point he was making. Hemingway just measures sentence complexity as a stand-in for clarity of writing. But, the issue with excerpts like the one above was not that they were too complex, but that they left out the context and explanations which a reporter should usually prioritize over style. Dropping text into Hemingway is easy, but it's clearly meaningless in this case, and gives people an opportunity to dismiss his thesis by quibbling with the application.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#82
post #53

Is this true of print articles as well? Before, when the articles had to fit a particular surface on paper, there were rules to write the article in a way that it could be comfortably cut after any paragraph and still make sense. So the first paragraph would contain a high level overview summary, then the details would pile up. Of course it's harder and more time consuming to write like that, but it avoids the overly…

That's because journalism schools and editors used to teach a style of writing that maximized conveyance of fact. That economy of writing is less needed with the internet, especially when many stories often have the singular fact that someone tweeted something.

I feel a "get off my lawn" rumbling deep down in my subconscious when I think about things like this.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#83
post #22

Newspapers used to have copy editors, people whose only job was to make sure that the kinds of mistakes the article refers to didn't get into print. Now they usually don't. That's why writing in newspapers got so bad. Edit: ninja'd.

This is the key insight. If you want not insta-news but deep, correct, insightful information, you should read publications that still employ multiple copy editors.

I for one work with a bunch of newspapers where these roles are still highly respected today; their presence alone explains why the output quality is much much better than their competition's, all other things being equal.

Typically, these people are authorized to edit any content needed without necessarily getting the writer's approval (it's baked into the writer's contract). They catch typos and fix grammatical errors, of course, but they will also check every single sentence multiple times for inaccuracies. They phone third parties, check that every word used is the correct one, make sure dates and events are exact, check arguments for syllogisms, fight with the author at times for the use of a particular word or expression in lieu of another, and so on so forth.

No matter how senior and respected, the journalists always approach these people with fear and awe when they get quizzed about their articles. Any approximation results in either the whole sentence getting axed or the author being forced to rewrite and resubmit (on their dime).

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#84
post #21

This is what happens when you spend decades demonizing journalism. Instead of giving us insightful articles, the New York times is competing against Facebook and Twitter to grab your attention immediately. I have a feeling most people don't read an entire New York times article, the entire point is just to create headlines you can share on Facebook or Twitter, keep those clicks and kpis flowing! In a way this is fant…

'Demonizing journalism' and having to adapt content in the wake of Facebook and Twitter are two separate things.

Mainstream journalism has been maligned for centuries (muckraking, yellow journalism, etc) and it seems to me that the main driver changing journalism today is the social media landscape. I just don't see the connection between demonizing newspapers and the change in how they write.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#85

Something that I think is rarely discussed when this topic comes up is the loss of prestige. Working for The New York Times or The New Yorker used to have some weight with pretty much everyone in the country. That is no longer the case. It hasn't been so for at least a couple of decades. Extremely erudite-yet-mostly-apolitical people like Lewis Lapham [1] went to literary magazines and high-end journalism a half-cent…

I think much of the journalism of ideas is happening in podcasts now. Podcasts certainly more of a frontier right now, with lots of people (still!) trying out interesting things, compared to the shrinking world of print journalism. 'Rough Translation' with Gregory Warner is one of the best, imo. The idea of to take important stories in the US and find analogues in other countries, and look at how they've played out.…

This ignores the fact that journalism is a professional discipline with established ethical practices that is practiced by groups of journalists and editors together.

Now there's definitely an argument to be made that it routinely fails to live up to those standards and that it has certain structural weaknesses and biases that need to be addressed.

But it is, overall, a system of professionals who consider their work to be constrained in certain ways that are ethically important to them and the world. Individual podcasters might adhere to some of these standards but as a field it has no aspirations to that. Same with journalists leaving established papers to publish on substack with no editorial oversight. They are not practicing journalism as journalists see the field.

These things might replace journalism but they aren't it.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#86

> So I threw in the entire text into Hemingway, an app that identifies poor or confusing writing. I found this interesting, because it seemed unbelievable to me that an app could be able to tell good writing from bad writing in a reliable or useful way. So I took excerpts from Shirley Jackson's The Lottery and pasted them in. (For anyone unfamiliar with it, The Lottery is considered a masterpiece of a short story, an…

I think you’re misunderstanding this tool. You’re shoving a Monet into a tool for graphic designers and complaining that it flags it as blurry.

Writing for news should be boring, dry, precise, clear and near painfully explicit with as little subtext as can possibly be achieved. Hemingway’s writing style just happens to be a good example of it.

I think you and people in this thread are confusing news with storytelling/newstainment like John Oliver, lots of Gimlet, Vice, etc. who take the news and up the production value by infusing their personalities and commentary. Despite the crass name this is a valuable service. Good storytellers are the bridge between the dry academic work of historians, journalists, scientists, philosophers, etc. and people outside their respective fields.

tl;dr news isn’t art and can’t be judged by the same measures.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the Hemingway app, but it is very much designed to make you write like Hemingway (ie short, clear sentences _only_). Obviously most great writing is not in this style. The Hemingway app is good for work emails and marketing copy, or if you happen to like that style. It is hardly the universal arbiter of "poor or confusing writing".

Oh wow it's almost completely okay with Hemingway. I pasted some of his work in and it had almost no complaint at all. Good point.

I was coming to say the same, and the descriptors being removed actually just points mote to its usefulness for writing 'in a Hemingway style'.

However, having said that I don't think the author of this article used it well, as for many reasons most any journalistic article is going to be very descriptive and use things like puns to get/maintain a reader's attention (something I personally usually hate, but not always).

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#89
post #21

This is what happens when you spend decades demonizing journalism. Instead of giving us insightful articles, the New York times is competing against Facebook and Twitter to grab your attention immediately. I have a feeling most people don't read an entire New York times article, the entire point is just to create headlines you can share on Facebook or Twitter, keep those clicks and kpis flowing! In a way this is fant…

I want news to return to the local level. Local news I am willing to pay for, because the information, and thus confidence in it, is closer to home and more identifiable. Reminds me of a book by John Grisham{1} about a young journalist who buys a small southern newspaper, and turns it around by focusing on actual news. {1}. The Last Juror

I don't think you're willing to pay what it would actually cost. Not calling you a liar, just noting that a truly local news source, operating at the level that they did 20 years ago, would cost so much more today.

The revenue for a local paper used to come primarily from advertising that doesn't exist anymore. Movie theater listings, classified ads, auto dealership sections. The Real Estate "section".

Each of those have been picked off by apps and websites. Craigslist, IMDB, Redfin/Zillow, etc.

And it's a spiral. With each reduction in circulation, the attractiveness for advertisers drops. Any attempt to make up the shortfall with higher subscription rates just accelerates the downfall.

So we get conglomerates that try to manage costs by being "local" in name only. They can't afford to employ reporters in every town with 75,000 residents. You instead get local papers that are just a reskin of a common wire feed. A few easy articles that could be GPT'd from the police blotter. Maybe a blogger or two.

Re: When did writing in major newspapers become so bad?

#90
post #80

Something that I think is rarely discussed when this topic comes up is the loss of prestige. Working for The New York Times or The New Yorker used to have some weight with pretty much everyone in the country. That is no longer the case. It hasn't been so for at least a couple of decades. Extremely erudite-yet-mostly-apolitical people like Lewis Lapham [1] went to literary magazines and high-end journalism a half-cent…

I'm not familiar with Lapham, but I'd consider many current New Yorker writers to be writing consistently interesting articles. Same with someone like Patricia Lockwood for the London Review of Books.

I used to be a big reader of The New Yorker. To me, they've slipped even more than the Times over the last decade, probably because they were on a higher perch.
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