Live data from Hacker News

“I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

twitter.com

81–90 of 145 posts

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#81

Simply as an observation, it’s interesting that serving in the military is usually treated as honorable, but working at a defense contractor is viewed as unethical. I wonder why that is?

I think the serving in the military seen as honourable is largely due to propaganda. There are different levels to it, but it is very obvious when coming from Europe to the US, where you see "support our troops" signs very regularly.

The military is the US’s most effective welfare program. Propaganda or not, most of the enlisted (the beneficiaries) are (1) poor and (2) never see combat.

Nonetheless is it bad to associate welfare with honor?

Defense contracting has complex returns for its owners. On the one hand it’s a ton of fucking money for stuff that again, never sees combat. On the other hand, you have to spend that money in Alabama, not New York or Los Angeles (where rich people want to live). On the other hand, you’re spending a lot of that money in Alabama.

I sympathize with the idea that the graft and inefficiency, in this abstract sense, is unethical, at least at the same magnitude as building a missile platform. It will never be used, making it only abstractly a support of violence against innocents. Whereas some enlisted are ultimately sent out to go kill people in the Middle East — but weren’t they just the ones to lose the welfare lotto of a cushy deployment in the 9,999 other places you could be sent? Or that the drones that actually routinely perform violence at a distance are considerably cheaper than the SpaceX missile platform, so if you sought to reduce the military budget the drones would be the LAST thing that gets cut and actually violence per dollar would RISE? Anyway, the ethics are hard to boil down to some pithy one liner, it’s an immature and unjust reduction of the complexities of real politics and how we measure things.

Besides, the EU also does this. A lot of governments do.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#82
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is just a tool, ethics depends on the user. Study history: WWII, Cold War, etc. If you play nice with dictators, you will be annihilated. We have been enjoying the benefits of freedom and democracy our ancestors fought for, without considering the costs of their sacrifices. Extensive data and studies (ex: Zimbardo, Milgram) supports that humans have immense capacity for evil- checks and balances are there…

> Technology was always just a tool There's a 1918 plaque in Bath, NC that reads "Bath, originally the Indian town of Pampticough, was settled by white men about 1690 and incorporated in 1703. It is the oldest town in North Carolina." What enabled the replacement of the original inhabitants was technology, in the form of ships, guns, and, arguably, health care. Given that events like this are some of the sources of t…

[deleted]

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#83
post #5

I don't agree with this mentality. If you are helping a dictator or authoritarian regime, sure. I think it is in the wrong side of the story. But helping out the US in developing high-precission weapons does the opposite. 1. It might save lifes, as the alternative is dumb carpet bombing. As we know during WW2, carpet bombing killed mostly civilians and destroyed cities. 2. Most weapons that the US has, are there for…

It's worth pointing out that carpet bombing in WWII was not some accident of primitive technology and inability to perform precise targeting.

It was deliberate strategy from the UK and the USA, with the goal to demoralize and punish German & Japanese civilians. Mass civilian death and the total destruction of whole cities was the result. Napalm, for example was specifically developed to create building fires that would spread quickly and not be easily extinguished.

The sheer horror of it is not spoken much of in the west, where the crimes against humanity that Nazi Germany performed are rightly highlighted. But as a person with an ex-pat German father who grew up in the rubble, and a grandfather who helped reconstruct post-WWII Mainz, I was always made acutely aware of it.

Frankly, it makes me cringe every rememberance day when I hear my Canadian friends talk about their heroic grandparents, etc. who flew Lancaster bombers during WWII. My Opa did something far more heroic which was to spend the bulk of the war in an American POW camp, not fighting anybody -- and learning English in the process.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#84
post #13

>i don't remember what it was exactly that he said after that but he explained to us the value of considering the ethics of the software you're writing prior to writing it, and it was one of the most impactful things i ever learned in school, period How is the US having accurate weapons unethical? These hypocrites never seem all that concerned about the war-making capacity of China, Russia, Iran, or other rogue state…

>How is the US having accurate weapons unethical?

Because we sell them to despotic regimes like Saudi Arabia who use them to do things like kill innocent people in places like Yemen?

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unethical because the US is the only country to have used the atomic bomb and by far the largest missile threat all over the planet today. In contrast, Iran, China and Russia do not on a daily basis assassinate civilians with missiles.

If the US disarmed and Iran, China and Russia were in charge, do you think the world would be better or worse?

Downvotes for asking a genuine question, and downvotes for other comments that are anything other than "USA is evil". What a state of affairs.

Edit: and now "flagged". How about this then? Fuck you, you sad cunts. Time to grow up, read some books, and get some fresh air.

P.S. Bye HN...

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#86
post #62

7500 miles per hour Woah! It is insane that they are able to do this. Does anyone know how much money/effort is going into achieving this? Might be interesting to compare such insane investments into destructive stuff vs investments in fighting poverty and such.

Investments unfortunately don't work that way, just because you have an opportunity to build a Tech company or a fancier weapon doesn't mean you have an opportunity to reduce poverty.

( although if you're financing hundreds of fancy weapon systems you may be irrationally diverting funds from productive ventures like healthcare. )

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#87
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technology is just a tool, ethics depends on the user. Study history: WWII, Cold War, etc. If you play nice with dictators, you will be annihilated. We have been enjoying the benefits of freedom and democracy our ancestors fought for, without considering the costs of their sacrifices. Extensive data and studies (ex: Zimbardo, Milgram) supports that humans have immense capacity for evil- checks and balances are there…

> Technology was always just a tool There's a 1918 plaque in Bath, NC that reads "Bath, originally the Indian town of Pampticough, was settled by white men about 1690 and incorporated in 1703. It is the oldest town in North Carolina." What enabled the replacement of the original inhabitants was technology, in the form of ships, guns, and, arguably, health care. Given that events like this are some of the sources of t…

Please expand your case. Those technologies were developed for other initial purposes, your case just proves an example of ethics depending on users

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#88
post #5

I don't agree with this mentality. If you are helping a dictator or authoritarian regime, sure. I think it is in the wrong side of the story. But helping out the US in developing high-precission weapons does the opposite. 1. It might save lifes, as the alternative is dumb carpet bombing. As we know during WW2, carpet bombing killed mostly civilians and destroyed cities. 2. Most weapons that the US has, are there for…

I think it's important to remember that history gets written by the winners and that your opinion might have been very different if you would have grown up under Pinochet in Chile or the Somoza family in Nicaragua.

Moreover, while I concede that the US entering some wars has been good, that does not guarantee that it will continue like that, so if you are developing missile guiding systems you should always reflect on that they might be used for evil. You could even say that many of the Russian scientists were probably thinking they were working on defending against evil.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#89
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Has the US ever been seriously threatened on its terrority? These missiles are there to protect the economic hegemony.

oi... WW2 is not that far away.... japan attacked us soil. Also, WW1, the US stayed away as much as it could, the eventually had to intervene as its ships started sinking The point of having lots of weapons, is not to have to use them, but be credible threat to not have the other side dare to use their weapons on you. Russia/Putin and China are developing hypersonic nuclear missiles. What is the US going to do about…

I mean, arguably Hawaii at the time was US soil in a looser sense of the word. It only became a state in 1959. It had/has a significant Japanese population, and presumably Japan saw invasion there (wrongly, for sure) as some kind of anti-colonial action.

Re: “I just woke up one morning and it struck me that I was a murderer. so I quit.”

#90
post #30
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious as to how missiles (or any weapon for that matter) could be used in "non-evil" way

Technology is just a tool, ethics depends on the user. Study history: WWII, Cold War, etc. If you play nice with dictators, you will be annihilated. We have been enjoying the benefits of freedom and democracy our ancestors fought for, without considering the costs of their sacrifices. Extensive data and studies (ex: Zimbardo, Milgram) supports that humans have immense capacity for evil- checks and balances are there…

The Cold War is an interesting example. We fought the Korean War relatively successfully, and we were left with the country split into a prosperous modern economy on one side and a paranoid (arguably justifiably so), insular dictatorship on the other. We lost the Vietnam War and the country is doing quite well. The Soviet Union itself fell without a direct war - ramping up spending to be able to fight a hot war was a major cause, yes, but so was the inevitable increasing spread of information.

And China now is far too powerful for us to even think about fighting a hot war against, yet if you shared the facts about it with anyone from half a century ago, they wouldn't have to think for more than a second before recognizing it as a dictatorship, a nationalist, supposedly-socialist single-party country with a cult of personality, suppression of rights in neighboring territories, and ongoing genocide. We're playing nice with them, because if we don't, we'll be annihilated.

If humans have immense capacity for evil, one of the best things we can do is limit how much damage their dark side can do. Lots of technology is great - communications technology so you can learn about the rest of the world, the ability to increase food production and provide clean water, healthcare, protection from the elements, transportation, and so forth. It's not clear to me that missiles are really the right tool.

Post reply on HN