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Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

nautil.us

81–90 of 155 posts

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#81
post #63

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication. You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substa…

The only idea conveyed in your message that has any factual basis is that psychedelics should be taken with a lot of care, preparation, and consideration, including pre existing susceptibilities. Everything else you said builds on top of this idea as if they are also fact based, but they are not. Let’s not make the social acceptance of psychedelics even harder than they already have been made to be.

You have noticed something very interesting about the nature of human consciousness and the way it conceptualizes the world, and the events, ideas, people, etc within it. Other examples of this phenomenon can be observed in this thread, and all other threads on any topic.

I propose that this phenomenon can be productively explored and ~understood with the usage of psychedelics if one goes in with this specific intention.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#82
post #76

i don't like this argument at all. protecting the environment is an immense responsibility that we all share, so the argument veers close to implying that choosing not to take psychedelic drugs is morally wrong -- willfully choosing to inhibit "evolutionary intelligence". i've noticed that in the last couple years, psychedelic advocates have shifted from advocating for legalization and increased research (very good i…

I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out.

In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which would include close integration with scientific study of the ongoing process), does it seem reasonably plausible to you that some sort of a significant achievement could be achieved?

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#83
post #76

i don't like this argument at all. protecting the environment is an immense responsibility that we all share, so the argument veers close to implying that choosing not to take psychedelic drugs is morally wrong -- willfully choosing to inhibit "evolutionary intelligence". i've noticed that in the last couple years, psychedelic advocates have shifted from advocating for legalization and increased research (very good i…

I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out. In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which wo…

i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity.

as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems like all the flaws and foibles of humanity are still there just as much.

it does seem like it teaches people a particular outlook or way of relating to the world -- but I don't think it's one that is superior or inferior to other perspectives. Probably society needs people who relate to life in many different ways.

I would worry about living in a society where it is the norm for everyone to take psychedelic drugs multiple times per year. I think things would get pretty weird.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#84
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out. In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which wo…

i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity. as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems…

I think you're missing an idea I'm trying to get at. I think we can agree that psychedelics do weird things (you may have not a whole bunch of first hand experience, and I can report from tons of reading that the variety and nature of first hand experiences is highly variable).

You have noticed (directly &/or read anecdotes & "beliefs" of users) some sample of the results (a subset of all user experiences, which is a subset of all the experiences that are possible in the space), and logically formed some sort of a conclusion about what psychedelics do/offer. I am speaking of that which is beyond - the far more rare experiences of people who have used them very deliberately as a tool (practices & results you are not aware of), and then also that which lies beyond anyone's experiences thus far. Might there be something important within these spaces (think from the perspective of a Venn Diagram), of which you have no information, but does in fact exist (or, could exist)?

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations. There are obviously many such factors involved in our integration with the environment. Why couldn't it be psilocybin (or other nootropic compound) that pushes us towards a more sustainable future with fewer mental health/chronic pain issues? This is a classic HN takedown of an otherwise interesting post.

> I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations. Nobody on here would say the same about arguments in favour of the magical power of acai berry, and I see no reason why we should treat even more extraordinary zero-data claims of a 'self taught, uncredentialled' guy who sells mushroom based supplements for a living[1] with a greater degree of deference. There's actual resea…

Acai Berries don't make you think you can feel the atomic bonds in the molecules of your body.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#86
post #45

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication. You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substa…

As you say, there are risks and benefits. "How" matters a lot. I think you exaggerate though. A lot of the risk is down to extremely irresponsible use... many steps removed from the high level of medical supervision you laid out. The basics are some mental preparation, a trip sitter, correct dosage and a proper set. I don't consider psychologists the only or necessarily best guides. Like all drugs (including alcohol)…

> it's a lot safer than many sports and hobbies.

What is the basis for this claim? How do we measure mental injury? What quantities are we talking about?

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#87
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity. as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems…

I think you're missing an idea I'm trying to get at. I think we can agree that psychedelics do weird things (you may have not a whole bunch of first hand experience, and I can report from tons of reading that the variety and nature of first hand experiences is highly variable ). You have noticed (directly &/or read anecdotes & "beliefs" of users) some sample of the results (a subset of all user experiences, which is…

it's definitely possible that individuals using these drugs carefully and deliberately could discover some kind of valuable practice or insight. And perhaps this could turn into something that eventually could be shared among many people, with the right context, like the Eleusinian Mysteries or something.

if people want to do this it seems like a good thing, if risky. (although there are people who claim to be using psychedelic drugs as a tool, but don't seem to be very disciplined and are really just enjoying recreational drug use -- which is probably safe but also not particularly valuable.)

what i find troubling is the idea that society would be better off right now in 2020 if most regular people just started taking mushrooms semi-regularly.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#88
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you say, there are risks and benefits. "How" matters a lot. I think you exaggerate though. A lot of the risk is down to extremely irresponsible use... many steps removed from the high level of medical supervision you laid out. The basics are some mental preparation, a trip sitter, correct dosage and a proper set. I don't consider psychologists the only or necessarily best guides. Like all drugs (including alcohol)…

> it's a lot safer than many sports and hobbies. What is the basis for this claim? How do we measure mental injury? What quantities are we talking about?

Is the only allowable statement one that can be backed by quantifiable analysis?

I didn't even specify which hobby, so lets go with alpine mountaineering. Hard to be more dangerous than this. Gridiron football has some good quantification, with ways of measuring mental injuries.

sheesh.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#89
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing an idea I'm trying to get at. I think we can agree that psychedelics do weird things (you may have not a whole bunch of first hand experience, and I can report from tons of reading that the variety and nature of first hand experiences is highly variable ). You have noticed (directly &/or read anecdotes & "beliefs" of users) some sample of the results (a subset of all user experiences, which is…

it's definitely possible that individuals using these drugs carefully and deliberately could discover some kind of valuable practice or insight. And perhaps this could turn into something that eventually could be shared among many people, with the right context, like the Eleusinian Mysteries or something. if people want to do this it seems like a good thing, if risky. (although there are people who claim to be using…

> And perhaps this could turn into something that eventually could be shared among many people, with the right context, like the Eleusinian Mysteries or something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

The Eleusinian Mysteries (Greek: Ἐλευσίνια Μυστήρια) were initiations held every year for the cult of Demeter and Persephone based at the Panhellenic Sanctuary of Eleusis in ancient Greece. They are the "most famous of the secret religious rites of ancient Greece".[1] Their basis was an old agrarian cult,[2] and there is some evidence that they were derived from the religious practices of the Mycenean period.[3][4] The mysteries represented the myth of the abduction of Persephone from her mother Demeter by the king of the underworld Hades, in a cycle with three phases: the descent (loss), the search, and the ascent, with the main theme being the ascent (άνοδος) of Persephone and the reunion with her mother. It was a major festival during the Hellenic era, and later spread to Rome.[5] Similar religious rites appear in the agricultural societies of Near East and in Minoan Crete.

Conceptualizing something that matches one's priors is easy. Conceptualizing something that does not match one's priors seems to be less easy, if not sometimes even aversive.

> although there are people who claim to be using psychedelic drugs as a tool, but don't seem to be very disciplined and are really just enjoying recreational drug use

There is what seems to be, and then there is what is - the latter portion is often many orders of magnitude larger, and often not conceptualized by the mind (it sees NULL). "Seeing" what literally cannot be seen is non-intuitive - we seem to have the capacity to do it with ease in some domains, but in others it seems very difficult, and the mind is often even strongly resistant (techniques like Venn diagram based thinking can help). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns [1]

> which is probably safe but also not particularly valuable

Safe and Valuable are two variables, of which we do not know the range of possible values, even if it may seem like it. The subconscious mind will gladly and near-instantly detect patterns though, which it presents to our conscious mind as facts. One can easily see this in simple scenarios, like in people who fall for fake news or conspiracy theories. Seeing it in ourselves is less easy.

> what i find troubling is the idea that society would be better off right now in 2020 if most regular people just started taking mushrooms semi-regularly

Consider why you find this troubling. The notion is True, or it is False, or somewhere in between (spread across millions of variables, sometimes forming binarily opposed conclusions, which can all be simultaneously True). Ideas are ideas, they can produce positive outcomes, or negative outcomes, but I don't think pondering them in the abstract should be thought of as troubling (I mean, that feeling is arguably sub-optimal, even if intuitive).

[1] While the remarks initially led to some ridicule towards the Bush administration in general and Rumsfeld in particular, the consensus regarding it has shifted over the years, and it now enjoys some level of respect. For example, Rumsfeld's defenders have included Canadian columnist Mark Steyn, who called it "in fact a brilliant distillation of quite a complex matter",[10] and Australian economist and blogger John Quiggin, who wrote, "Although the language may be tortured, the basic point is both valid and important."

-------> Psychoanalytic philosopher Slavoj Žižek says that beyond these three categories there is a fourth, the unknown known, that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know: "If Rumsfeld thinks that the main dangers in the confrontation with Iraq were the 'unknown unknowns', that is, the threats from Saddam whose nature we cannot even suspect, then the Abu Ghraib scandal shows that the main dangers lie in the "unknown knowns"—the disavowed beliefs, suppositions and obscene practices we pretend not to know about, even though they form the background of our public values."

German sociologists Daase and Kessler (2007) agree with a basic point of Rumsfeld in stating that the cognitive frame [2] for political practice may be determined by the relationship between what we know, what we do not know, what we cannot know, but Rumsfeld left out what we do not like to know.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)

In the social sciences, framing comprises a set of concepts and theoretical perspectives on how individuals, groups, and societies, organize, perceive, and communicate about reality.

Framing can manifest in thought or interpersonal communication. Frames in thought consist of the mental representations, interpretations, and simplifications of reality. Frames in communication consist of the communication of frames between different actors.

In social theory, framing is a schema of interpretation, a collection of anecdotes and stereotypes, that individuals rely on to understand and respond to events. In other words, people build a series of mental "filters" through biological and cultural influences. They then use these filters to make sense of the world. The choices they then make are influenced by their creation of a frame.

Framing is also a key component of sociology, the study of social interaction among humans. Framing is an integral part of conveying and processing data on a daily basis. Successful framing techniques can be used to reduce the ambiguity of intangible topics by contextualizing the information in such a way that recipients can connect to what they already know.

Framing involves social construction of a social phenomenon – by mass media sources, political or social movements, political leaders, or other actors and organizations. Participation in a language community necessarily influences an individual's perception of the meanings attributed to words or phrases. Politically, the language communities of advertising, religion, and mass media are highly contested, whereas framing in less-sharply defended language communities might evolve[citation needed] imperceptibly and organically over cultural time frames, with fewer overt modes of disputation.

One can view framing in communication as positive or negative – depending on the audience and what kind of information is being presented. The framing may be in the form of equivalence frames, where two or more logically equivalent alternatives are portrayed in different ways (see framing effect) or emphasis frames, which simplify reality by focusing on a subset of relevant aspects of a situation or issue.[1] In the case of "equivalence frames", the information being presented is based on the same facts, but the "frame" in which it is presented changes, thus creating a reference-dependent perception.

Re: Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

#90

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication. You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substa…

> Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication

How terribly narrow minded this statement is when faced with the complexity of the experience.

And to state the obvious -- "bad" people are often victims of trauma, and working with these substances in a directed way can get to the root of these traumas in a way that frees the person from said trauma. It's a process that doesn't happen overnight, but sometimes it does, and miraculously so.

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