By these criteria, my education sucks. But it's been the best decision I ever made. I think that in these reoccurring debates, HN is overlooking a broad, challenging, great books-based liberal arts education like the one I'm in. By refusing to teach "technical" skills that are better learned on the job anyway, and instead actually building the strength of the mind, for the sole sake of, as John Newman said, the sake of it, liberal arts places itself in the unique position of external to current industry trends. They'll teach you to learn, and leave the technical training to you once you graduate.
Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
81–90 of 149 posts
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#82Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…
That may be true, but I think there's more to the "regret" group. Consider this: I have a degree, so it's in my economic best interest to try and inflate the importance of that degree in the job market. I can do that by trying to raise the status of my school (see: alumni donations) or by putting down those without degrees (see: degree requirements for jobs). In practice, I'm so disgusted by the entire system that I…
Conversely it is in the interest of people who do not have a degree to deflate the importance of the degree in the job market?
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.
Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.
One of the "great successes" of Indiana education lately (scare quotes to denote its Potemkin aspect) is the satellite campus in the city in which I live of a certain state university, which has recently been augmented with a new satellite campus of, um, another certain land-grant university. (Hi, Mr. Google, nothing to see here.)
Party of the first part itself has never been much to write home about (and that alone would back up the grandparent), but party of the second part in particular is shamelessly exploiting the lack of a viable local economy by selling degrees with the promise of "careers". The people in that program are utterly disinterested in learning anything at all that someone here at HNN would consider an "education" (after all, they just want jobs; they don't care how, and if someone will sell them a job, they're happy to pony up the money, but they don't see why they should go through the rigamarole of learning math and stuff) - and they will be graduating with a degree in engineering from said Indiana land-grant university which is rather well known for its engineering program. (That is, the commodity they're selling is - for now - worth it.)
I don't want to get too much more specific or even identify my source of information, but let me assure you that - even though I don't consider this universal in American education - I do consider it probably rather typical, because if Indiana is doing something, I know damn well we didn't originate it.
The people going through this program know nothing about math or engineering. Nothing. You probably think that's hyperbole. Let me assure you that it is not hyperbole; they know so little math that you would honestly not be able to accept that a member of H. sapiens is capable of knowing so little math. They're simply paying for the piece of paper that they're told will get them a job, and nothing more. If too many in a class fail, ways are found to make sure that those students still get their credits. The paramount goal is to sell degrees, no matter what, and to present the facade of dynamic growth.
I want to stress at this juncture that this is not the DeVrie Institute or some other commercial educational organization - these are well-known, fairly well-respected, state universities. They're not Harvard, but the engineering school in particular is a good one, especially in aerospace. The degrees they are selling are good names. But they're selling them, cash on the barrelhead. I remember perfectly well when a new president was hired at Party of the First Part University with the motto of running the school like a business, and this is the result.
Now, I'll grant you none of this is data, it's anecdotal, from an anonymous source, and hopefully not too easy to Google, and I've omitted worse allegations that I believe to be true - I live here, after all, and know these people, and I can't prove any of it. But it's all too real. If you want to deny it, fine; that's certainly your right. But OP is far more on target than you seem to be comfortable with.
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
You had me up to here: > You don't really know if it's worth what you spent, because the seller is purposely keeping you in the dark about the value, continuing to assure you that this type of purchase at these rates is absolutely necessary. This isn't like buying a car or a house. My degree has no monetary value, as far as I can tell. I'd love to sell it to the highest bidder, but it's non-transferable. I essentiall…
In my opinion, there's already a term for all this debate around the education 'bubble': "Buyer's remorse". Half of it is buyers' remorse, the other half is sour grapes. There are three types of people in the world: those who went to university and are glad, those who went to university and regret it, and those who didn't go to university and want to be reassured that they didn't miss anything important. Only folks i…
I think this is a vast overstatement. As a potential employer, it's in my best interests to have colleges create the best applicants possible, regardless of my personal college status. As a parent, it's in my interest to have any sort of college investment I might make to pay off. As a taxpayer, it's in my best interests to get the best return for our government investment.
To put this entire debate in terms of whether the person speaking has attended college or not is really stretching logic a bit too far. Lots of other reasons to evaluate a college education one way or another.
I think you're walking a fine line here. Especially with this sour grapes remark, it almost seems as if you're saying "these folks didn't get/enjoy college. This is the reason they say what they do. Therefore their opinion is biased and you needn't listen to them."
Sticking somebody in a bucket and then explaining away everything they might say because of the bucket they're in? Sounds to me like one of those logical fallacies everybody loves to quote so much.
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
To nearly every professor I've met, the criteria should be something similar to this: A student is introduced to a wide variety of subjects and challenged by a variety of views outside of the cultural bubble in which the student was born; such so that an undergraduate student leaves better prepared to participate in educated society and make wise decisions in civic and public discourse. I am rather iffy on this idea,…
Intellectual humility is a beautiful thing. Education usually blasts away many natural preconceived notions about the world. It makes engineers run tests and scientists run experiments. What better way is there to get people to question their own knowledge but by showing them other viewpoints? It also arrogantly presupposes the professor's intellectual environment to be less bubble-like than the students' I think the…
In some cases, agreed. However, in other cases, it seems to do just the opposite: it seems to introduce new or enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies. From my perspective, it appears to happen most often with the so-called "soft" sciences, and most especially in things like literature and gender/race and non-mainstream sexual studies. There's very much a cult-like aspect to some academic fields, making them have more of the characteristics of a religion than of science.
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#87Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well shit, all I can say on the subject is exactly what an originality-challenged dean would say to his class of incoming freshmen (if deans actually addressed classes of incoming freshmen): what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Want to take advantage of being able to spend four years learning from some of the best minds in every field of human endeavour? Four years set free on hundreds of possible…
what you get out of it depends on what you put into it If the average quality varies that much, we should be paying a lot less for it. High prices (in general) imply a level of quality. They don't necessarily indicate quality, but you're not paying a lot for no reason. If the quality from a BMW was highly variable the price would need to decrease to account for that level of risk. In education the student takes all o…
The challenge is that many people bring exactly this consumerist attitude to tuition, which then ruins the signalling capacity of the price. "If it's expensive, it must be good." That pushes up demand for enrollment and increases the selectivity and reputation of the university in US News, etc. The university therefore has an incentive to keep tuition high. Unfortunately, then students and parents think, "I'm paying so much for this degree, I should (get A's/not flunk out/...)" [1] Professors who grade rigorously are evaluated harshly; since most instructors aren't tenured, there's no incentive for them to make classes challenging. Then many employers use the earned degree as a crude signal of diligence, since what was actually learned is likely irrelevant to the job at hand.
Finally, most families send only a handful of children to college, and there's a significant lag between when graduates and the evaluation of the "success" of the degree. There's no way tuition can accurately price the variation in outcomes with all these inefficiencies.
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#89What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.
Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
For what it's worth, nothing in the article discusses her personal experiences or generalizes from them.
You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure…