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Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

guix.gnu.org

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Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#81
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd thank you for not making HN a worse place by bikeshedding. You may not care about this project, but some people here do.

It's not bikeshedding. The open source community has opened its eyes to how poor a job of inclusivity it's done, and one of the changes that resulted was a social taboo against names and terminology that serve as microaggressions, including "master", "slave", "blacklist", "cop", and "gimp". Given the context in which "gash" is often used in ordinary language, it's reasonable to at least question its use as a project…

No reasonable person thinks "woman" when she encounters the word "gash". I'd wager there are fairly few unreasonable people who think that, but of course it only takes one to kick off a spriraling pointless bikeshedding thread. It's good that we've got this inanity flagged to the bottom, but when I commented it was at the top.

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you insist on wanting to do this, there's absolutely nothing preventing you from doing it. Have fun. I really do want to do this, precisely because the software in the repo is often out of date, if it is even there at all! I really don't like the idea of a mandatory middleman between the developer and the user. And since I really do want to do this, and do it often, I can say with quite a bit of certainty that >…

Oh wow that sounds exactly like the kind of problems package mamagers solve. Your complaint basically boils down to - nobody prepared a one click package of latest version for free for me.

My complaint comes down to the following: why must there be a middle man between the developer and user, why must there be a separate middleman for every repo, why must said repo prevent me from installing older versions, why must the package manager prevent me from installing to alternative paths... basically, why does the community insist that this simple task that was the de-facto way to install software for DOS, MacOS (classic), NeXT, RiscOS, and MacOS (recent) insist on being complicated and restrictive in Linux?

And if package managers really solved the problem, why do so many projects deploy with Docker? Why do FlatPak and Snap exist, let alone my preferred AppImage?

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#83
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on what you mean by shoot themselves in the foot. There are major differences in philosophy and bar the "superficial" differences these are quite different projects. For one nix simply doesn't have a project focused on bootstrapping. As another example compare rust bootstrapping[0] versus using a rust binary[1]. Nix also has no alternative to guix challenge[2] or guix pack[3]. Even a comparison of…

Nix has `nix build --check` which should do the same thing as `guix challenge`. I think there may be more fine tuned options in challenge though.

It's not the same. Guix also has "guix build --check" which builds a package a second time to compare potentially different results.

"guix challenge" challenges different substitute servers and also compares what they offer with what you may have installed (whether you built it locally or downloaded it from elsewhere). It's really quite different from "guix build --check".

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#84
I love the idea of Guix. I also love Scheme and Free software. It seems Guix and I would be a match made in heaven. But then I read things like this: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/deprecating-support-for-the-l... (turns out this was an April fools joke)...

I'm not sure I love Hurd so much. Admittedly, I have not used it, but would be hesitant to rely on it for any important work. Maybe it will prove me wrong. It just seems like it has been an awful lot of work to get Linux to where it is, and it was a pretty bumpy ride at times.

Edit: I guess I'm pretty dense. I hate April fools jokes! But now I'm happy I can start using Guix without fear of being forced into Hurd. That said, I will try out Hurd just for the fun of it.

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#85

Does anyone know of a recent comparison of NixOS vs Guix? Both these projects are awesome and I’m a NixOS user but I want to learn more about Guix. I’ve found older ones but nothing in the past year and with all the recent developments in both communities I’d love to see a side by side comparison.

I think what will make the most difference in the long term is using GNU Guile Scheme as language for package definitions. I think it is a brilliant choice to use a mature and popular language which supports functional programming very well. The fact that Scheme is minimalist and easy to learn will without doubt help attracting contributors in the future, and this in turn will be decisive for driving adoption in the long term.

Another feature that is very nice is that there is no difference between a package definition in a local development environment, and a definition in the official channel. What you put together as a build recipe of a tool that is useful for your quirky local project will also work as part of the distribution.

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it were that simple, It is that simple. > why would we need package managers at all? Sadly, the Linux community as a whole have dedicated themselves to a structure that makes this seemingly simple task remarkably difficult. Because there's a huge difference between a user downloading/running a binary, and software package management in an OS. The former is not maintainable, your binaries will be out of date soon…

> if you insist on wanting to do this, there's absolutely nothing preventing you from doing it. Have fun. I really do want to do this, precisely because the software in the repo is often out of date, if it is even there at all! I really don't like the idea of a mandatory middleman between the developer and the user. And since I really do want to do this, and do it often, I can say with quite a bit of certainty that >…

> I really do want to do this, precisely because the software in the repo is often out of date,

That depends much on the distribution you use (if recentness is most important, why do you don't use Arch), and being out of date is definitely not the case for Guix System:

http://distrowatch.org/dwres.php?firstlist=guixsd&firstversi...

Sp, why are you bringing an argument that does not apply to Guix?

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#87
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow that sounds exactly like the kind of problems package mamagers solve. Your complaint basically boils down to - nobody prepared a one click package of latest version for free for me.

My complaint comes down to the following: why must there be a middle man between the developer and user, why must there be a separate middleman for every repo, why must said repo prevent me from installing older versions, why must the package manager prevent me from installing to alternative paths... basically, why does the community insist that this simple task that was the de-facto way to install software for DOS,…

> why must there be a middle man between the developer and user, why must there be a separate middleman for every repo,

Guix allows you to easily write own package definitions which are treated as part of the whole system. If you submit them and they are accepted, they simply become part of Guix.

> why must said repo prevent me from installing older versions,

Precisely this is a case that Guix solves extremely well: One can start environments with specific versions of packages, like in Pyhon's virtualenv.

And by the way, the complexity is caused by the issue that many many components need to fit together. That does not happen by chance, it is a massive amount of work to make it fit in a manageable way, and check that it works. That's what distributions do.

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#88
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally don't like to talk about other projects negatively, because I don't think that Nix and Guix should compete. They are different takes on the same concept. But as I'm very familiar with Guix and have occasionally looked at how they deal with some of the packaging problems I worked on in Guix I can say that the Nix colleagues are often punting on problems instead of solving them. Let me give you a few exampl…

> This comes at a cost, of course: Guix has fever Java packages because of that, but those that it has are actually built from source. Truly this is much more valuable than actually being able to use the software.

> Guix has fever Java packages because of that

That's right, but 13,800 packages is not exactly bad. I believe that is more packages than Ubuntu had a few years ago.

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#89
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In GNU fashion they're using savannah mailing lists and email patches so to those who are comfortable with git{hub,lab} it's slightly less familiar. Here is their git repository: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/guix Here is the web interface to their issues and patches mailing list: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/ As you can see although the project is less popular, it is no less actively developed and you can easily…

I fear it being 'GNU' they will shoot themselves in the foot somehow. Bad marketing, unnecessarily geeky and childish nomenclature, GPLv3 and make it all free software, no proprietary drivers, hard to get proprietary third party software to install et cetera... 'GNU Guix is a transactional package manager and an advanced distribution of the GNU system that respects user freedom.'[0] NixOS is developed using the MIT l…

> unnecessarily geeky and childish nomenclature, GPLv3

You seem to be a bit new to this issue.

Building software from source and using FLOSS licenses makes sure that the software is available in the long term and can be developed further (even if the original developers lose interest or run out of time for that).

There are many more advantages in using free (copyleft) software which can be build from source, and making this capability available to the end user as Guix does:

- better privacy protection (the software does not phone home or leaks your private data, as does, for example, Zoom)

- a working software which is used will not be simply withdrawn and be forbidden to use (as many Google software projects).

- useful standards and file formats, such as markup in text documents are available in the long term (I still have latex sources from 1993 around which I wrote in another language that uses different char sets, and which I can today compile without any problem).

- FLOSS software also has the advantage that it is more economical with attention (a very precious human resource), as it only display useful stuff and does not extra things that only have the purpose to capture the attention of the user. For example, I really hate it when I open a web browser with a blank page, to look up something I am working with, and it is full of advertisements for news for completely unrelated stuff up to sexual gossip and celibrity trash, when what I need to do is concentrated work. Once you have become aware of how much many nonfree software wastes your attention, and that this is actively against your interests, it is difficult to ignore that.

- it does not need to assume unrelated features to compete, which prevents feature bloat and improves usability (your picture viewing program does not need to be a file manager, and your image editing program not a publishing platform)

- preventing feature bloat and open interfaces also improves its interopoeration with other software (who does really believe that MS Word is usable?)

- preventing commercial-driven featuritis is also good for long-term usability. I learned to use Unix in 1994 I believe, and I can still navigate and inspect the file system using cd and ls.

- Using open standards also means, for software developers, that their knowledge does not goes out of date quickly or becomes unusable when they change employers. Non-free software tools have a much shorter half-life (anyone still using Silverlight or Visual Basic?), and this means a lot of your learning effort becomes useless after a few years. This might be a minor advantage for somebody who has worked one year or two but it makes a big big difference after many years of working.

- As a lot of innovation happens incrementally and evolutionary, and innovation is based on open exchange of ideas, free software is very open to innovation. At the same time, as working code can always be shared (as, for example, the code for the build daemon in NixOS and Guix), innovation is better conserved than in closed-source software with usual commercial licenses. At a previous employer, I mighhjt have done a really good job with some kind of signal processing which would be useful for things like making wind energy more reliable, but the project manager fucked that up, the software is closed source, and the effort is lost to humanity. I would very much prefer the generation of my niece to get the returns of the work I did.

I could go on for half an hour but I have something else to do :)

But, all of this boils down to that the software on somebody's computer is controlled by its user, not somebody else or a big company which has interests very different from him (or her), and this is what the GPL is about. And yes, the GPL is a means to some end, one could discuss how to reach its specific goal in a different way, but simply labeling its intention as "childish" is just FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt).

Re: Guix Further Reduces Bootstrap Seed to 25%

#90

Is anybody using this? What do you like about it versus a more typical linux or unix? Is hardware support good enough to run on a relatively recent laptop?

Just a reminder, you can also use Guix as a package manager only on top of, for example, a Debian or Arch system (I am using it currently on top of both). This works very much like Python's pip / virtualenv, and is extremely helpful if you use many different libraries and new tools when developing software, or if you want to try out new things without changing your base system, and without wanting to set up a full VM.
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