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Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

nature.com

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Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#81

Post by blaufast »

raducu wrote: post #69
joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

If you used to be on SSRIs and they worked, then LSD doesn't sound like a good match. I regret not taking psychedelics, but I hallucinated from a large dosage of hashish and had visual disturbances for a couple of days after, so I figured it's better to not mess with other psychedelics. I also got a bad panic attack from a moderate dosage of stimulants(bad idea mixing them) and I could not drink coffee for 2 years, o…

Mental disturbances from hashish and psychedelics, while similar symptoms, are completely different internally. I wouldn’t rule out psychedelics based on that experience.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#82

Post by spuz »

joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

The process that patients go through when participating in a medical trial of psilocybin is so different than the typical recreational setting that the rest of us experience these drugs. They do everything they can to make sure the patient is well prepared and has the minimum chance of having a bad trip.

However, every time I read about studies into psychedelics, I only ever hear about the upsides and not the potential downsides. I went through a similar experience to you - although not as severe. I had anxiety for about 3 years after my bad trip which luckily gradually reduced over time.

What worries me is that the more these drugs gain credibility in the medical field the more likely it is that depressed kids are going to self-medicate and given the ability of these drugs to multiply the user's existing anxieties, they should be the last people who should be experimenting and self-medicating with them.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#83

Post by luckylion »

dTal wrote: post #17
deathgrips wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an anti-depressant pill everyday and it solves your problem, why is that bad? Are you hostile to medication in general?

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

> A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

So if we don't have a one-time, permanent cure, we shouldn't try to get a daily medication? Because ... why exactly?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#84

Post by kortex »

dTal wrote: post #17
deathgrips wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an anti-depressant pill everyday and it solves your problem, why is that bad? Are you hostile to medication in general?

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

Psychedelic trips aren't a permanent cure for depression though. They have really good long-term effects on remission, but that still means nearly half won't remit.

> At a follow-up appointment after three months, 5 out of 12 patients were still in remission and 7 out of 12 showed a continued response

It often shines a light on the causes, but sometimes the causes are intractable/ongoing, or the only resolution is to learn to accept.

[1] https://tidsskriftet.no/en/2018/11/oversiktsartikkel/psyched...

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#85

Post by garbageket »

werber wrote: post #36
ketamine__ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take a prescribed ketamine lozenge every day. I don't experience any psychedelic effects and I'm fine with that.

I’m very curious about how much you take daily and the effects. I’ve read about the super high dosage therapy, and that made a lot of sense to me. Are you just ever so slightly dissociated at all times?

I dunno about them but, but I get by on 20mg taken weekly. If I miss a dose, it's usually ok. If I miss two, suicidal ideation is my dominant thought pattern. As for effects, I'm a little dizzy for about 30 minutes and I prefer to spend this time napping or in a hot bath.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#86

Post by pharke »

skohan wrote: post #33
presiozo wrote: post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

> they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day. I feel like this model is a perfect example of how the incentive structure of the pharmaceutical industry runs counter to pursuit of the best outcomes. From what I understand anecdotally, psilocybin taken in moderate doses can have beneficial effects on depression and anxiety which last for weeks or months after the dose. This would be an amazing…

I think it might just be a hangover from the view that "you're missing X from what we consider a normal neuro-chemistry so we'll give you a constant dose of Y to make some changes to the level of X"

This has always felt like it was treating the wrong thing. The way that neurons operate seems to be much more complex than just the changes made by neurotransmitter levels and flooding the entire network with higher levels of a neurotransmitter probably has all kinds of unintended consequences. I think this approach is often applied because its something that can be done quickly and easily and has immediate effect rather than spending months and years retraining the patient's brain. I hope that we see a revolution in clinical treatment that combines guided psychedelic therapy and daily practice. We need a more compassionate approach than just twisting a knob and nailing it in place.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#87

Post by Trasmatta »

spuz wrote: post #82
joeberon wrote: post #6

Totally anecdotal but LSD made my depression significantly worse than improving it in any way. I had two proper trips and had a seizure kind of thing at the start of the second one due to the overwhelming visuals (not experienced anything like that before or since). EDIT: to expand, it made me very questioning of my own consciousness and gave me severe and persistent existential dread and fear of death to the point w…

The process that patients go through when participating in a medical trial of psilocybin is so different than the typical recreational setting that the rest of us experience these drugs. They do everything they can to make sure the patient is well prepared and has the minimum chance of having a bad trip. However, every time I read about studies into psychedelics, I only ever hear about the upsides and not the potenti…

I also had severe, lasting anxiety after a couple of bad trips. I will never use again unless I get the opportunity to do so in a therapeutic setting with trained professionals. There is tremendous potential for good with these substances, but they have some real risks.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#88

Post by pharke »

kortex wrote: post #77
skohan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day. I feel like this model is a perfect example of how the incentive structure of the pharmaceutical industry runs counter to pursuit of the best outcomes. From what I understand anecdotally, psilocybin taken in moderate doses can have beneficial effects on depression and anxiety which last for weeks or months after the dose. This would be an amazing…

Moderate does trips aren't for everyone. The HN crew is full of novelty-seeking, curious, open-minded explorers, already drawn to this sort of experience. Your average, vanilla soccer mom who is largely okay with life but struggles with panic attacks because her brain isn't great at damping the amygdala-cortical loop, may not necessarily be ready/interested in a trip through psychedelic space.

I think the answer to that is to slowly increase the dose over a number of sessions. Starting out with microdosing to get used to the body feeling, then getting used to visual disturbances and the altered mental state, and then graduating to a level that can unlock new perspectives on self and the world. This absolutely has to be done by a trained professional with personal experience with the substance and who has assisted with other guided sessions. It's not going to be a prescription that a doctor can throw at the patient and then check up on in a few weeks time.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#89

Post by Trasmatta »

saiya-jin wrote: post #64
joeberon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think that the psychological harm, much like some other drugs, can be underrated. Another example of a drug people see as harmless is cannabis, which can reliably give people (including myself) intense anxiety and panic attacks. It is conjecture on my part but I can't think that it is healthy for your mind to subject yourself to intense feelings of anxiety. These days I steer clear of all drugs except for my S…

Powerful psychoactive substances shouldn't be taken by people who are not mentally 'balanced', meaning just fine, happy with themselves or similar. I know its easy to say in hindsight, many of us tried those things when we didn't think about it, and it worked better for some and less for others. I think the old set & setting has some proper meaning here and can vastly bootstrap the incoming experience. Having a calm,…

> Powerful psychoactive substances shouldn't be taken by people who are not mentally 'balanced', meaning just fine, happy with themselves or similar.

Agreed, but part of the problem is that they're often framed by their proponents as a miracle drug that can cure you of depression, anxiety, and fear of death. So people with those problems will often self medicate with them.

And for some people, it totally works. But it can backfire tremendously, and actually worsen those problems. There's a psychonaut meme that there's "no such thing as a bad trip, just a difficult one", but that's absolutely untrue.

I think psychedelics have incredible therapeutic potential, though, and I'm looking forward to a world where they are legal, well tested and researched, and usable in safe environments with trained and compassionate professionals.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#90

Post by Trasmatta »

joeberon wrote: post #58
breakyerself wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't reccomend LSD to anyone. My last time taking it was devastating. Traumatic hallucinations and delusions during the trip and I had anxiety and uncomfortable tactile sensations that took more than a year to dissipate.

I also suffered from intense tactile sensations throughout the trip that lingered for a few months afterwards. I've always had oversensitivity to touch on THC-heavy cannabis strains but I experienced strong synesthesia on LSD which translated to a few months where feelings of anxiety were directly coupled to my sense of touch in my right index finger and thumb

I've had a very similar experience with my hands. I believe it's a symptom of Depersonalization.
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