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Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

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Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#81

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

onion2k wrote: post #67
1propionyl wrote: post #51

Oh good. Another app. When will people learn that more technology is not only not always the answer, but often the problem? The biggest fallacy of the 21st century is the idea that the shortcomings and collateral effects of the advance of technology can be addressed with more technology. I'm not against technology. I'm not a neo-Luddite. But at the same time, the conception that all of the problems we've created or e…

It's time for us to recognize that we (the tech community) don't have all of the right answers, and it's time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try to participate in fixing the problems we helped create. Is this like when people in the past said the postal system couldn't ever replace visiting someone, and that the telephone would never replace letters, and that chat apps couldn't beat a phone call.. People i…

have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of boredom. They are no longer human as far as I'm concerned. The problem is never that AI and technology will replace us. We are becoming (actually we have already become) so much like AI/robots that it's impossible to stomach. Everyone isolated into their own little algorithmic prisons without any need to listen to others. It's much much worse than any hard drug you could be addicted to because with hard drugs you still have others who you can do them with. Just do yourselves a favor and never unplug because what you see might be so upsetting that you might wonder if it's still worth living.

I won't even get started on the problem of "fixing loneliness" with an app. You don't "fix" loneliness with an external tool. The only solution to fix this is inside you (and it hurts if you do it right). Pain is part of it and anyone who claims they can take away the pain, or make it easy should be metaphorically incinerated.

These things aren't increasing empathy. They're the opposite: They are empathy sinks!

y'all do yourselves a favor and read Jacques Ellul "La Technique" (The Technological Society) and stop peddling and defending more Tech just for the Benjamins.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#82

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

1propionyl wrote: post #73
onion2k wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think someone launching an app stops people using all the other means of addressing their social issues. It's another option, not a replacement option.

But is it an option that will actually help? Or is it a red herring that will drive in app purchases and ad revenue while letting the problems it purports to help with fester? Attention is a finite resource.

> Attention is a finite resource.

and equally, so is empathy. And those people who invest in this garbage and profit of it ofc know it!

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#83

Post by sgift »

1propionyl wrote: post #55
davidajackson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about whether the most successful products to solve loneliness will be ones that help people connect virtually, versus connect in person. Maybe a healthy balance of both?

"Solve" loneliness. With a "product". Try to get out of your bubble. To anyone who isn't entirely immersed in that bubble this is absolutely insane talk. It sounds sociopathic and out-of-touch. Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a problem you can "solve" by engineering. And maybe, just maybe, the solution (if it exists) isn't a "product".

> Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a problem you can "solve" by engineering. And maybe, just maybe, the solution (if it exists) isn't a "product".

Or maybe it is. In all your comments in the various threads here you fail to give a reasoning for your position which is not "it is my opinion". Instead you have now started attacking others. "sociopathic talk"? Really?

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#84

Post by starfallg »

pal_9000 wrote: post #65
1propionyl wrote: post #51

Oh good. Another app. When will people learn that more technology is not only not always the answer, but often the problem? The biggest fallacy of the 21st century is the idea that the shortcomings and collateral effects of the advance of technology can be addressed with more technology. I'm not against technology. I'm not a neo-Luddite. But at the same time, the conception that all of the problems we've created or e…

You're absolutely wrong. Technology enables an avenue for easier communication, discovery. It may not be a panacea and not the only solution. But saying 'it won't fix' is defeatist.

Solitude and solitary activities are important for our psyche. If the social issues caused by too much information and communications is due to its ill effects on us mentally, then that approach is not only ignorant, but dangerous.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#85

Post by coolnow »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #81
onion2k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for us to recognize that we (the tech community) don't have all of the right answers, and it's time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try to participate in fixing the problems we helped create. Is this like when people in the past said the postal system couldn't ever replace visiting someone, and that the telephone would never replace letters, and that chat apps couldn't beat a phone call.. People i…

have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of boredom. They are no longer human as far…

I normally don't post here but i just wanted to say that i've noticed the same thing around me and have also felt the crushing depression that comes with the realisation that everyone is addicted to something that's destroying the very fabric of our society.

And your point about fixing loneliness through a painful but personal journey is spot on. If it doesn't hurt, you're not really doing it properly.

Go out and meet new people, talk about new ideas and remember that all storms will pass.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#86

Post by 0x8BADF00D »

starfallg wrote: post #84
pal_9000 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely wrong. Technology enables an avenue for easier communication, discovery. It may not be a panacea and not the only solution. But saying 'it won't fix' is defeatist.

Solitude and solitary activities are important for our psyche. If the social issues caused by too much information and communications is due to its ill effects on us mentally, then that approach is not only ignorant, but dangerous.

It only affects you because you are trying to find truth and meaning in it. You cannot find meaning intellectually. Or in an app. You have to experience it. To discipline your mind takes years of effort.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#87

Post by castillar76 »

1propionyl wrote: post #51

Oh good. Another app. When will people learn that more technology is not only not always the answer, but often the problem? The biggest fallacy of the 21st century is the idea that the shortcomings and collateral effects of the advance of technology can be addressed with more technology. I'm not against technology. I'm not a neo-Luddite. But at the same time, the conception that all of the problems we've created or e…

In his UseNIX keynote in 2018[0], James Mickens described the terrible idea he termed 'Technological Manifest Destiny':

1. Technology is value-neutral and therefore will automatically lead to good outcomes for everyone.

2. New kinds of technology should be deployed as quickly as possible, even if we lack a general idea of how the technology works or what the societal impact will be.

3. History is generally uninteresting because the past has nothing to teach us right now.

He was, at the time, applying that theory to things like dumping AI and Machine Learning into the American justice system, but it could easily be applied here as well. It's the same misapprehension that throwing more technology at a problem will always solve that problem.

And as he later observed, everyone who's played Oregon Trail knows that Manifest Destiny often ends in dysentery.

[0] "Q: Why Do Keynote Speakers Keep Suggesting That Improving Security Is Possible? A: Because Keynote Speakers Make Bad Life Decisions and Are Poor Role Models", UseNIX 2018 (https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity18/presentat... Transcript: https://www.zachpfeffer.com/single-post/2018/11/27/Transcrip...

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#88

Post by germinalphrase »

101404 wrote: post #80
1propionyl wrote: post #75

> It’s a different kind of chat app, named after the Greek island where a close-knit community helps extend people’s lifespans. As someone who actually has family on several Greek islands including Icaria, this is fucking disgusting and insulting marketing. Nearly _every_ village on any island and nearly _every_ village on the mainland have an extremely tight-knit community that care about one another. To claim this…

Disgusting and insulting? Please don't be ridiculous. This kind of reaction is a large reason why society is in the situation it is in. But I get it. To feel "special", one must feel "insulted". That's how to collect "victim points". Do you really want to live in a society like that?

Wow. Lot of bad blood in this thread.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#89

Post by Ygg2 »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #81
onion2k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for us to recognize that we (the tech community) don't have all of the right answers, and it's time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try to participate in fixing the problems we helped create. Is this like when people in the past said the postal system couldn't ever replace visiting someone, and that the telephone would never replace letters, and that chat apps couldn't beat a phone call.. People i…

have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of boredom. They are no longer human as far…

> They are no longer human as far as I'm concerned.

Holy dehumanization Batman! You arrived at this point frighteningly fast.

They are staving off boredom with X - they aren't human anymore. Despite staving off boredom being literally one of most human things to do.

Yeah, you probably can't fix some problem with another app, but the same can be said of most things. Loneliness is a complex thing to solve. Not to mention the problem might lie on a much deeper societal level.

Re: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app Ikaria

#90

Post by maccard »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #81
onion2k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's time for us to recognize that we (the tech community) don't have all of the right answers, and it's time for us to reach out and try to learn, and try to participate in fixing the problems we helped create. Is this like when people in the past said the postal system couldn't ever replace visiting someone, and that the telephone would never replace letters, and that chat apps couldn't beat a phone call.. People i…

have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of boredom. They are no longer human as far…

DyslexicAtheist 49 minutes ago | parent | on: Secret’s founder returns with anti-loneliness app ...

have you been outside recently? I mean outside without a phone for a couple of months. Give yourself a no-data diet, and just observe what is going on in others. Wait alone at a bus-stop or alone at a pub or cafe. You can see them addicted to their screens everywhere. It's the norm now to immediately reach for the phone because god forbid they might otherwise feel 2 seconds of boredom.

I think you're vastly overestimating how social people were before smartphones were widespread. This is a really awful source, but it proves the point pretty well [0].

> It's much much worse than any hard drug you could be addicted to because with hard drugs you still have others who you can do them with.

I hope you don't really believe this. I don't disagree that some modern tech/algorithm solutions are making the world a worse place, but to say that you'd be better addicted to heroin than Facebook is nonsense. Humanity is always calling the "next" thing worse than the current thing when the current thing is normalised (music, rock music, television, video games, smart phones) - here's [1] an article from 30 years ago speaking about TV addiction.

> Just do yourselves a favor and never unplug because what you see might be so upsetting that you might wonder if it's still worth living.

I sincerely hope you don't feel this way, and if you really do, you should speak to someone about your feelings.

[0] https://www.sadanduseless.com/evil-iphones/ [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/16/science/how-viewers-grow-...

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