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An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

aeon.co

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Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point is made in the book "The Soul of the White Ant" by Eugène Marais, and is perhaps the primary thesis of the book. It is a fascinating book, and I can recommend reading it, though having been published in 1925, it is possible some of the information is out-of-date. https://www.amazon.com/Soul-White-Ant-Complete-Unabridged/dp... "White Ant" actually refers to termites, though the same principles apply. The bo…

The hardcover version is only 814.57$

My goodness, would you look at that! Luckily the paperback is only 1% the price, so solid deal there!

I thought it's a data entry error, but no, it looks like that's the legitimate price range for the NEW hardcovers (the actual listed ones are even more!):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0007JVUSK/ref=dp_ol...

It's either a ripoff, or some sort of collector's edition original versions. Though if it were the latter, I'd have expected it to be advertised as such.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#82
post #71
post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Here is an even more interesting question: if an ML algorithm can be considered conscious, do you even need to "run" it (whether on a computer or by a "group of people doing calculations by hand") for that consciousness to exist? An algorithm is fully deterministic... it will always produce the same result, always "think the same thoughts" given the same input. So where is the consciousness, in the execution, or in t…

>An algorithm is fully deterministic...

Well, the ideality one project in its representation of an algorithm surely might feels like that. An execution of a software in perpetually moving execution stack in a broader network of extremely volatile context is an other affair.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#83
The title is extremely sensationalistic, Occam’s razor points to undetectable(by humans) scent trails that lead the ants to the same harvesting locations every year.

There are no revelations about memory or collective consciousness to be found in this article. Every Occam in the world would infer human-undetectable scent trails from the evidence presented here, not some cosmic revelation about “how memory works” like the title and first paragraphs of the article heavily imply.

@pg @dang this title and article in general is outrageously misleading.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#84
post #53
post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

This reminds me of the Chinese Room argument. Basically, it goes like that: I never took any Chinese lesson. However, suppose I obtain a huge instruction manual that tells me exactly which sequence of Chinese characters I should use to reply to any sequence of Chinese characters you (a native Chinese speaker) give me. Do I "know/understand" Chinese?

I think everyone is forgetting the writer of the instruction manual in the book. You don't know Chinese any more than any program knows what it's doing, and if we received a invalid input the communication would crash the exact same was as any program. With the exception of George Lucas movies, it's very rare for a human to crash of a non-hardware issue.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#85
post #51

I wonder if individual members ever make decisions against the ant colony. For example if the ant colony as a whole discriminates a certain group of ants, will those ants simply obey? Basically are there rebel ants?

An interesting aspect to me is that a collective intelligence can easily create a diffusion of responsibility. It's a lot easier to kill or give into base impulses when the blame is shared by the whole. Bees and ants don't tolerate nonconformity, they'll kill a queen if she's not filling her role.

I didn't enjoy To Kill a Mockingbird, but I think it's good for kids to read it.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#86
post #53
post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

This reminds me of the Chinese Room argument. Basically, it goes like that: I never took any Chinese lesson. However, suppose I obtain a huge instruction manual that tells me exactly which sequence of Chinese characters I should use to reply to any sequence of Chinese characters you (a native Chinese speaker) give me. Do I "know/understand" Chinese?

The thought experiment is underspecified in ways that undermine it.

How big is the book?

Seems like a nitpick about a theoretical concession in a thought experiment, right? No, it's actually very important.

If the book contains simple instructions like if you receive character A then reply with B, etc. in a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style, then it would have to be exponentially large. Too large to be able to carry out more than a few words of conversation, and certainly you would not be able to converse about math, e.g, you're asked what 一 plus 二 is and you say 三, etc. The book would rapidly become larger than the planet Earth with any reasonable conversation depth. This is not just practical problem.

Okay, so the book isn't a simple lookup table, fine. You'll have to have a piece of scrap paper and write down things to refer to them later. But once you do that, it's obvious that you've created a system of memory. It undermines the whole force of the thought experiment. The book was supposed to contain all the brains and you were just supposed to mechanically follow along without understanding what you're doing. But now you're doing complicated things like solving math problems and then converting the answers into Chinese. In order to give the book a finite size, we've given you a lot of work to do, and now it's totally reasonable to say that you do know how to write Chinese. You write Chinese by looking it up, the same way that real translators do!

The Chinese room thought experiment is much discussed but it's a pretty poor thought experiment. It handwaves away all the important parts of language in order to make an inscrutable point about machine intelligence. It neither sheds light on machine intelligence nor language.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#87
post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Old Chinese Room argument, updated for the 2020s

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#88
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - the system (you + the book) know Chinese. Let me ask you another question - when I throw a ball at you your subconcious brain has to solve a differential equation to know how to use muscles to catch that ball. Do you know how to catch a ball if you don't know the math but still can catch it?

> Yes - the system (you + the book) know Chinese. Or the system knows how to translate from English to Chinese. Human language isn't simply about following translation rules, though. It's also about communication and expressing thought. Or participating in language games. > Let me ask you another question - when I throw a ball at you your subconcious brain has to solve a differential equation to know how to use muscl…

> Why suppose the neural network needs to solve differential equations? Is that the only way to learn to catch a ball?

Yes. You need to decide where to put your hand, how to orient it, etc in reaction to the ball movement.

The answer is a solution to the differential equations, and you cannot consistently get a good answer to an equation if you don't solve it.

The solution probably isn't symbolic but numeric, but that hardly changes anything - you still need a lot of math to consciously solve such an equation numerically.

> Or the system knows how to translate from English to Chinese. Human language isn't simply about following translation rules, though. It's also about communication and expressing thought. Or participating in language games.

human doesn't get to decide what to do in Chinese room experiment - (s)he is just a dumb CPU that does table lookups in a huge book. Every possible response to a sequence of previous messages is already written in that book (so it must be quite big ;) ).

You could completely automate it, remove the human and nothing would change from the outside.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#89
post #15

> Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next. A neuron uses the rate at which it is stimulated by other neurons to decide whether to fire. In both cases, memory arises from changes in how ants or neurons connect and stimulate each other. Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with e…

> Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Indeed. I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group. One part which can procreate, like the reproductive…

I recall termite colonies also have interesting an interesting behaviour that resembles an analogue for an organ that other animals are acquainted with: lungs.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/09/how-termites-...

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#90

> Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next. A neuron uses the rate at which it is stimulated by other neurons to decide whether to fire. In both cases, memory arises from changes in how ants or neurons connect and stimulate each other. Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with e…

>Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons.

The idea of memory as persistent echoes of neuron firings in spacing & intensity is fascinating.

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